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Hank's Ratio / Baldr's Ratio

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    • Baldr [1847600]
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    Thread created on 07:03:25 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Last replied 19:57:38 - 19/09/26 (6 days ago)

    From time to time, I get asked about Baldr's Ratio, which is a system for training that lets you use two special gyms for two of your stats. Tied to that explanation is Hank's Ratio, which lets you use two special gyms for three of your stats.

    Hank's Ratio lets you use two special gyms to train three of your stats, and your fourth gets trained in George's Gym.

    Baldr's Ratio lets you use two special gyms to train two of your stats, and your other two get trained in George's Gym.

    Hank's gives more overall gains from gym trains, but it also requires that one of your stats be very low, around 9% of the total at most.

    Baldr's ratio goes a lot further towards letting you stay fairly balanced.

    George's is the best gym that doesn't have special requirements. It uses 10e per train, and has 7.3 gym dots. The specialized gyms have 25e trains, with 7.5 gym dots, or 50e trains, with 8.0 gym dots. The reason to use Hank's Ratio or Baldr's ratio is to try to do more of your training in those special gyms, with the higher gym dots, so you gain more stats overall.

    I should point out that what they call Baldr's Ratio, I did not actually invent. Someone told me about it long, long ago, and my name got attached. I don't know who actually came up with the system (or, later, the name), but it is the system I use.

    --

    Hank's Ratio

    This shows Hank's Ratio, set up for Defense as high stat. That forces Dexterity to be the low stat, and the low stat must stay very low. By using different gyms, you can do the same thing in reverse, with high Dex and low Defense.

    For effective purposes, You must have either dex or defense as you high stat, and the other as low stat. In theory, you could do this with Speed or Str as high stat and the other as low, but it doesn't help to have very high Str if you miss nearly every round, and doesn't help to hit every round if you do very little damage, so that is not practical.

    Most people who use Hank's Ratio will use Dex or Defense as their high stat, and that will force the other as their low stat. Most people would agree that defense is more useful than dex, so if using this system, they would make defense their high stat, dex their low stat.

    If Defense were at 100m, then perfect balance via Hanks Ratio works out like this. The %'s are the same if you used a different stat as high stat.

    Strength 80,000,000 27.78%
    Defense 100,000,000 34.72%
    Speed 80,000,000 27.78%
    Dexterity 28,000,000 9.72%
         



    The thing I dislike about that is the lack of balance. Your low stat (dex in the example) has to be very low, under 10%.

    But the advantage is that you train your high stat in one special gym, both of your medium stats in another special gym, and your low stat in George's Gym. Three of your stats benefit from the special gyms.

    To use Hanks Ratio with Defense as high stat :
    Defense : Mr. Isoyamas (50e)
    Strength and Speed : Frontline Fitness (25e)
    Dexterity : George's (10e)

    To use Hanks Ratio with Dexterity as high stat :
    Dexterity : Elites (50e)
    Strength and Speed : Frontline Fitness (25e)
    Defense : George's (10e)

    It is possible to use Hanks with Str as high stat (using Gym 3000 as the 50e gym, and Balboas Gym for dex/defense). Or with Speed as the high stat, by using Total Rebound as the 50e gym, and again, Balboas for dex defense. However this is not recommended. High strength with very low speed just means you will miss most of the time, and high speed with very low strength will let you hit often, but do low amounts of damage (possibly none, depending on their defense.)


    So that explains Hank's Ratio.

    --

    Baldr's Ratio

    Below is an example of what they call Baldr's Ratio, set up with Str as high stat. Again, any stat can be your high stat. Your secondary stat will be Speed if you use Str as high stat (or you can swap those and have Speed high, Str second.) Or you can use Dex/Defense as your high stat, and the other half of Dex/Defense as your secondary stat.

    Strength 100,000,000 30.86%
    Defense 72,000,000 22.22%
    Speed 80,000,000 24.69%
    Dexterity 72,000,000 22.22%
         



    Your lowest stat is still about 22% of your total, so this is a much more balanced build.

    You train your high stat in one special gym. your second stat in another special gym, and use George's for your two lowest stats.

    For me, with Str as high stat, that means using Gym 3,000 (50e gym) for strength trains, Frontline Fitness (25e gym) for speed trains, and George's Gym (10e) for dex and defense trains.  (But I do not recommend Str or speed as your high stat!  It was a mistake for me!)

    You can do similar, with speed as high stat, by using Total Rebound for speed, Frontline Fitness for Str, and George's for dex and defense.

    Or, you can make your high stat defense or dex, using the appropriate 50e gym for your high stat and Balboas Gym for the other, with Str and Speed being trained in George's.

    It's much more balanced than Hank's Ratio, since your lowest stat can be around 22% of your total, compared to under 10% for Hank's Ratio. But only two of your stats benefit from special gyms, instead of three.

     

    --

     

    My personal opinion : I believe that almost everyone should use Baldr's Ratio, with either dex or defense as high stat.  RGiskard made a post about why he believes Baldr's ratio is better.  I pinned it, which mean it will be the 2nd post in the thread.

     

    I made Str my high stat.  That was a mistake.  A big mistake.  It worked just fine when I was reasonably close to the actual ratio.  But eventually, as I got bigger, and richer, it reached the time when I started using lots of stat enhancers.  I used enough to reach the top 100 stats.  At one point, I was #80 or #85, something like that.  But when my strength shot up that much, it did not make me nearly as much stronger in combat as my stats would show.  I take too much damage, too fast.  Even if I win a fight, I may take a lot of damage, and in wars, that means my hospital timer goes quickly.  Groups can attack me and easily win, because they get to all take a swing at me each round, while I only get one shot off.  It just did not work out well.  I had been warned it was a mistake, but I didn't think it was going to be this big of a mistake.

     

    So just go with dex or defense as high stat.  At least if you reach the point where you want to start using SE's.

    --

    You can find details about the different gyms, their requirements, etc, in this link.
    https://www.torn.com/wiki/Gym#Specialist_Gyms_.26_Requirements

    --

    There is a script that some people use to help keep the ratios correct. I've moved to using this script myself.

    Install Greasemonkey if you are using Firefox:Greasemonkey Addon for Firefox
    Install Tampermonkey if you are using Chrome:Tampermonkey Extension for Chrome
    I'm told that Tampermonkey works for Edge, but I've never used Edge myself.

    Then install the Userscript: https://greasyfork.org/scripts/14778-hank-s-ratio/code/Hank'sRatio.user.js
    --

    This link goes to a google-sheet version of the spreadsheet I used at first, before I switched to the script. My copy (that I actually use) is local, on my computer, and if you plan to use it, you should probably make your own copy.

    Last edited by Baldr on 10:04:23 - 19/09/26 (6 days ago)

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  • Pinned Response
    • RGiskard [1953860]
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    Posted on 02:02:05 - 23/01/24 (2 years ago)
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    From time to time, people still ask me about using Hank's Ratio. I wrote the linked tampermonkey script by Hank's request, and I was the one that christened the other build presented here as Baldr's Ratio, with Baldr being my friend and, at the time, faction mate in Relentless. I have worked with a few people that have used Hank's Ratio, and I, myself, used Baldr's Ratio in what now seems ages long past.

    After all this time, I've only seen one case where Hank's Ratio appeared to be the best choice: a player holding at level 1. The reason this made sense for him was because his life was so low that it was prohibitively difficult to gain enough defense to avoid getting one-shotted by a competitive opponent vs making them miss with dexterity.

    If you are asking yourself whether Hank's Ratio is right for you, I would counsel you that the answer is "no" unless you are committed to having very little defense for most or all of your Torn career. With the existence of sure shot and the constraints of Hank's Ratio, this is a dubious decision, unless you see it as a stepping stone to boost your dex much, much higher with stat enhancers later on.

    Below is the explanation of the reasoning, with the comparisons being Hank's vs Baldr's. There are of course many other possible builds, each with their strengths and weaknesses. Baldr's Ratio is, in my opinion, the best generic build in terms of the combination of increased gains while still being strong, and in terms of retaining your special gyms if you are lucky enough to afford a significant number of SEs.

    The pros of Hank's Ratio:

    • Higher gym gain speed (around 5%-7% from my calculations years ago, my memory is foggy) while using the ratio
    • An alright springboard into using SEs to the moon on a single, defensive stat, especially if you view any E spent training the other defensive stat as wasted

    The cons of Hank's Ratio:
    • Weaker for the same stat total
    • The lowest stat is a huge liability, max only 9% of your total
    • May require much more time in a suboptimal gym to get to the ratio (primarily limited by how high your 4th stat already is, the higher the worse)
    • More difficult to follow faction steadfast rotation (if your faction has any steadfasts over 10%)
    • Much more difficult to use the single-stat gym gains books
    • SE usage on your top stat quickly removes all special gyms except the 50E one on that stat

    The reality is most of us asking this question at all are more interested in being the strongest fighters we can be, and it is easy to falsely assume that a higher battle stat total is stronger than a lower total that better matches your opponents. More importantly, you might not even end up with a higher total. When you take into the account the excess time in George's vs 25E or 50E to unlock Hank's vs Baldr's, particularly if your preferred bottom stat is already fairly advanced by the time you made this decision, as well as the suboptimal choices on steadfast rotations and books and such, you might end up with a weaker build and lower stats.

    Put more qualitatively, the people I know who did Hank's Ratio felt it was restrictive. They all chose def or dex for their main stat for obvious reasons (e.g.: if you choose str or spd, then you're doomed to not being able to beat almost anyone), but you can't let the top stat go too high or else you lose the 25E gym, so they never had high enough def or dex to overcome the weakness from pairing it with low dex or def. When they started using SEs on their top defensive stat, they were basically done with special gyms for possibly the rest of their Torn careers.

    For these reasons, I recommend Baldr's Ratio as the default choice for people who don't yet know how they want to build out their stats. As you can see, there are still some cases where it might not be the best option for a given player. For the average player without megazord money that isn't holding at a super low level, Hank's Ratio probably is not for you.
    • Eddeh [23878]
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    Posted on 07:18:01 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Thanks baldr, I am heading towards your ratio at the moment - speed got much higher while I was loaning the sports sneakers from l4

    ligma

    • Riot [974353]
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    Posted on 09:28:16 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    R+ I maintain Hanks ratio and personally found it very combat efficient and very training efficient.

    One of the perks hank had in his guide, which you haven’t mentioned here is the fact that; when training 3 stats and neglecting your dex you are effectively wasting all the energy your opponent put into their speed.

    Sidebar: “The thing I dislike about that is the lack of balance. Your low stat (speed in the example) has to be very low, under 10%”

    This is a mistake right, you mean dex in the example?
    Last edited by Riot on 09:31:15 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
    • Baldr [1847600]
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    Posted on 09:33:51 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Yes, should be dex, and I've edited to fix that. Thanks.

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    • BVLGARI [2269769]
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    Posted on 13:14:30 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    As far as I understand, the dex should be at 20 million at max (not 28 million) in Hank's ratio. Otherwise, it will lose Frontline Fitness special gym access.

    Frontline Fitness
    Str + Spd = 25% higher than Def + Dex
    80mil + 80mil = 160mil
    25% of 160mil = 40mil
    So, Def + Dex should be 160mil - 40mil = 120mil (you have 128mil in your example)

    To keep Hank's ratio,
    one should keep this formula - 1:1:1.25:0.25
    1.25 and 0.25 will be your Def and Dex respectively (train Def in Mr. Isoyama and Dex in Georges if you're going for high Def and train Dex in Elites and Def in Georges's if your going for high Dex) and keep both Str and Spd at 1 in Frontline Fitness

    In your example (for high Def setting), the stats should be as follows:
    Str = 80mil (1*80)
    Spd = 80mil (1*80)
    Def = 100mil (1.25*80)
    Dex = 20mil (0.25*80)

    That is in theory. In practical, one should keep the lowest stat (Dex or Def) at something around 0.23 (not 0.25) in order to have room to grow other stats and not losing special gym access.
    Last edited by BVLGARI on 13:38:07 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
    • Baldr [1847600]
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    Posted on 15:11:38 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    For Frontline, Strength + Speed 25% higher than Dexterity + Defense

    If Dex is 100m and defense is 28m, that's 128m total. +25% adds another 32m. So Strength and Speed need to be at least 128+32 = 160m.

    Mr. Isoyamas requires defense 25% higher than your second highest stat. In the example, the second highest stat is 80m. 25% of 80m is 20m, so defense would need to be at least 100m.

    There is certainly a balancing act going on. It's more difficult to keep the stats correct when using Hank's Ratio, which is why people tend to use the script to decide what they need to train.

    Baldr's Ratio (which I am obviously more familiar with) is much easier.
    Last edited by Baldr on 15:12:09 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)

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    • Riot [974353]
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    Posted on 15:15:33 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Baldr [1847600]

    For Frontline, Strength + Speed 25% higher than Dexterity + Defense If Dex is 100m and defense is 28m, that's 128m total. +25% adds another 32m. So Strength and Speed need to be at least 128+32 = 160m. Mr. Isoyamas requires defense 25% higher than your second highest stat. In the example, the second highest stat is 80m. 25% of 80m is 20m, so defense would need to be at least 100m. There is certainly a balancing act going on. It's more difficult to keep the stats correct when using Hank's Ratio, which is why people tend to use the script to decide what they need to train. Baldr's Ratio (which I am obviously more familiar with) is much easier.
    Its easy to balance once you've achieved the ratio. Train Def until Frontline closes, Train spd/str until Isoyamas closes.
    • BVLGARI [2269769]
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    Posted on 15:56:08 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Baldr [1847600]

    For Frontline, Strength + Speed 25% higher than Dexterity + Defense If Dex is 100m and defense is 28m, that's 128m total. +25% adds another 32m. So Strength and Speed need to be at least 128+32 = 160m. Mr. Isoyamas requires defense 25% higher than your second highest stat. In the example, the second highest stat is 80m. 25% of 80m is 20m, so defense would need to be at least 100m. There is certainly a balancing act going on. It's more difficult to keep the stats correct when using Hank's Ratio, which is why people tend to use the script to decide what they need to train. Baldr's Ratio (which I am obviously more familiar with) is much easier.
    You're right. Str+Spd is 25% higher than Def+Dex (I calculated in the wrong way). So, the formula should be 1:1:1.25:0.35. Thanks for the correction.
    • Hornz [2220919]
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    Posted on 19:48:38 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Thank you for making a simple break down of the most popular power training ratios. I often link new people to an archived version of Hanks guide but its so long and goes so in depth that most get lost in it. I can now link them to this. :)

    R+
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    • vvqqdd1 [2418480]
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    Posted on 22:12:44 - 05/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Wow that's what I needed
    • Meresca_Milnota [2100616]
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    Posted on 04:07:38 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Anyone edited the script into Baldr's ratio?
    • Baldr [1847600]
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    Posted on 04:37:53 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Meresca_Milnota [2100616]

    Anyone edited the script into Baldr's ratio?
    I tried it just now, and it looks like Baldr's Ratio is there by default, no changes needed. I suspect the comment about needing to edit it is old and out of date. I removed my remarks in the guide about needing to edit the script.
    Last edited by Baldr on 04:40:16 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)

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    • _Pam_ [2235735]
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    Posted on 04:59:45 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Riot [974353]

    R+ I maintain Hanks ratio and personally found it very combat efficient and very training efficient. One of the perks hank had in his guide, which you haven’t mentioned here is the fact that; when training 3 stats and neglecting your dex you are effectively wasting all the energy your opponent put into their speed. Sidebar: “[color=#333333][size=12]The thing I dislike about that is the lack of balance. Your low stat ([b]speed[/b] in the example) has to be very low, under 10%”[/size][/color] This is a mistake right, you mean dex in the example?
    But if 2 peeps with hank's ratio, then they both wasted e to train speed because their dex is sooooo low? Sounds like only str and def is useful now :o
    • Ammar [1856771]
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    Posted on 05:55:24 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Riot [974353]

    R+ I maintain Hanks ratio and personally found it very combat efficient and very training efficient. One of the perks hank had in his guide, which you haven’t mentioned here is the fact that; when training 3 stats and neglecting your dex you are effectively wasting all the energy your opponent put into their speed. Sidebar: “[color=#333333][size=12]The thing I dislike about that is the lack of balance. Your low stat ([b]speed[/b] in the example) has to be very low, under 10%”[/size][/color] This is a mistake right, you mean dex in the example?

    _Pam_ [2235735]

    But if 2 peeps with hank's ratio, then they both wasted e to train speed because their dex is sooooo low? Sounds like only str and def is useful now :o
    Well with that logic. It will never end. There is always a counter for any build. (unless balanced, maybe?! Balanced hard to counter, but will take much more time to get same total stats due to the exponential nature of training)

    Like, as you said Hank's build gets countered by people who have low speed but only focus on str and def (or low accuracy weapon like duals or claymore mine temp) since has no dex, never miss

    Then, that same guy that only train str and def but has low speed, will get countered by people who have dex but low def. cos will always miss

    Then low def high dex guy (aka OP level 1, #uKnowWho) will get countered by high speed high def people (aka Hank's build)

    So, on and on. like rock paper scissor

    Both Hank's build and Baldr's build crafted around special gym available -- frontline (str+speed) and balboas (def+dex) and all single stats gym--.

    I am sure we will have much more creative build if only we have other combinations for special gyms like let's say str+def combo (hulk) or speed+dex (ninja) combo

    Note: Also, of course, damage mitigating patch make def the most trained stats overall
    Last edited by Ammar on 14:38:03 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Posted on 10:38:16 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Riot [974353]

    R+ I maintain Hanks ratio and personally found it very combat efficient and very training efficient. One of the perks hank had in his guide, which you haven’t mentioned here is the fact that; when training 3 stats and neglecting your dex you are effectively wasting all the energy your opponent put into their speed. Sidebar: “[color=#333333][size=12]The thing I dislike about that is the lack of balance. Your low stat ([b]speed[/b] in the example) has to be very low, under 10%”[/size][/color] This is a mistake right, you mean dex in the example?

    _Pam_ [2235735]

    But if 2 peeps with hank's ratio, then they both wasted e to train speed because their dex is sooooo low? Sounds like only str and def is useful now :o

    Ammar [1856771]

    [color=#333333][size=12]Well with that logic. It will never end. There is always a counter for any build. (unless balanced, maybe?! Balanced hard to counter, but will take much more time to get same total stats due to the exponential nature of training)[/size][/color] [color=#333333][size=12]Like, as you said Hank's build gets countered by people who have low speed but only focus on str and def (or low accuracy weapon like duals or claymore mine temp) since has no dex, never miss[/size][/color] [color=#333333][size=12]Then, that same guy that only train str and def but has low speed, will get countered by people who have dex but low def. cos will always miss[/size][/color] [color=#333333][size=12]Then low def high dex guy (aka OP level 1, #uKnowWho) will get countered by high speed high def people (aka Hank's build)[/size][/color] [color=#333333][size=12]So, on and on. like rock paper scissor[/size][/color] [color=#333333][size=12]Both Hank's build and Baldr's build crafted around special gym available -- frontline (str+speed) and balboas (def+dex) and all single stats gym--. [/size][/color] [color=#333333][size=12]I am sure we will have much more creative build if only we have other combinations for special gyms like let's say str+def combo (hulk) or speed+dex (ninja) combo [/size][/color]Note: Also, of course, damage mitigating patch make def the most trained stats overall
    I always want to be a ninja when I started! Though I think ched will never implement str+def or spd+dex special gym..
    • Baldr [1847600]
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    Posted on 10:53:54 - 06/12/19 (6 years ago)
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    Riot [974353]

    R+ I maintain Hanks ratio and personally found it very combat efficient and very training efficient. One of the perks hank had in his guide, which you haven’t mentioned here is the fact that; when training 3 stats and neglecting your dex you are effectively wasting all the energy your opponent put into their speed. Sidebar: “[color=#333333][size=12]The thing I dislike about that is the lack of balance. Your low stat ([b]speed[/b] in the example) has to be very low, under 10%”[/size][/color] This is a mistake right, you mean dex in the example?

    _Pam_ [2235735]

    But if 2 peeps with hank's ratio, then they both wasted e to train speed because their dex is sooooo low? Sounds like only str and def is useful now :o
    From time to time, Ched changes how things work, and a stat that maybe wasn't so great before may get much better, or a stat that was very useful before may be less useful.

    I believe all the "dex is useless" arguments are just plain wrong anyway. And if dex is useless, then speed is useless. And I know speed isn't useless, so the argument fails.

    Balanced works out best. It doesn't need to be exact, but if you ignore any one stat, that hurts you. At the same time, the argument for Hanks is that even though it leaves you with one weak stat, you gain more stats overall. And as a general rule "more stats" beats "less stats".

    I do prefer Baldr's ratio since it keeps you closer to balanced. And in my case, by the time I learned about Hank's Ratio, I was fairly well developed using Baldr's Ratio, so it would have taken a very long time to adjust to Hank's. I can certainly see the argument for Hank's if you aim for it initially.

    Baldr is Buying

     

    Weavers script to include bazaars when viewing item market.

    https://www.torn.com/forums.php#/p=threads&f=67&t=16451791&b=0&a=0

     

    Bzimor's website, Lets you find (or advertise) items for sale in bazaars.

    https://torn.bzimor.dev/

     

     

     

    • HashHomie [2063017]
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    Posted on 13:06:05 - 10/01/20 (6 years ago)
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    bump
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    Posted on 14:00:03 - 05/02/20 (6 years ago)
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    !

    Maker of TornEngine

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    Posted on 08:15:35 - 05/03/20 (6 years ago)
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