Will COVID change minds of antivaxxers? Or not? - Page 3 | Sci…
Will COVID change minds of antivaxxers? Or not?
  • PoP angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 66
    • Posts: 1330
    • Karma: 1421
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 19:54:24 - 18/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]

    Is that regarding all vaccines or just the COVID one? I mean that's you're choice but you have to acknowledge the benefit to society they bring (e.g. eradication of smallpox, significant reduction of polio, etc)

    Samoiedskaya [1709631]

    Do you really think that modern vaccines are the same ones used like 50 years ago?

    Everything is toxic crap nowadays designed to make me sick and lifelong customer of the big pharma. I would never trust their murderous, psychopathic, greedy, corrupted dealers in white coats. It's all about money, power and control. Nobody gives a shit about my health or happiness, and nobody ever will. Evil incorporated has completely taken over control over this planet :(

    angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]

    "Do you really think that modern vaccines are the same ones used like 50 years ago?"

    Which ones did you have in mind? The process of making them probably remain fundamentally the same however 50 years is a long time so I would hope that improvements are incorporated in newer vaccines.

    "Everything is toxic crap nowadays designed to make me sick and lifelong customer of the big pharma."

    Is there any evidence to support this?

    Vinnivich [2304578]

    I wouldn't even the say that vaccines of the past were any better. I think it was in the 60-70s where a vaccine that was 20 years in development backfired drastically.

    As for sources, you could start with Plandemic or materials which I posted in an earlier reply and continue your research from there. The information is vast, so knowing some alt. media sites will help, because the results don't always show up in Google.

    angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]

    I think you're referring to the 1976 Swine Flu vaccine which certainly had it's flaws.

    I wouldn't really call Plandemic or an alt media site a source. I prefer raw data since numbers (assuming the collection methodology is sound) don't lie.

    Vinnivich [2304578]

    "...massive overcrowding of hospitals in Europe and the US back around February/March..."
    Yet people have posted videos from that time, showing empty hospitals and doctors, who are confused about the media reports that claim otherwise. At the same time, patients with other problems didn't get diagnosed or treated. That's where some of those deaths came from, among other reasons, but it was all dubbed covid.
    It's possible that some specific hospitals were crowded, but if so, why specific hospitals? Were all patients redirected there? Was there something different in the area? Like in Italy, where they did 5G testing prior to the outbreak and happened to use a new vaccine the previous year, which supposedly made people more susceptible to coronaviruses.

    "As mentioned before, look at the elimination of small pox. Look at the near elimination of measles, polio, tetanus, Whooping cough... these were major diseases half a century ago."
    Well, there are doctors who question the existence of HIV or measles, like we're questioning this coronavirus right now. So this debate surrounds all of those viruses really.

    Btw, all of that comes from the sources I listed before, so I still think you might just find some answers there.

    "I wouldn't really call Plandemic or an alt media site a source"
    Why not? What about mainstream media? It's not just about the data, but also how you interpret it, so I think it's useful to be aware of different conclusions. Another thing I've noticed is that MSM sometimes fails to cite their sources, while many other sites tend to be more consistent.
    "Yet people have posted videos from that time, showing empty hospitals and doctors, who are confused about the media reports that claim otherwise."

    I'm not sure what videos you are referring to. Depending on when said video was is a major factor in establishing context. Seeing as how there is ample video evidence to support over crowding of hospitals, I don't think this is a reliable piece of evidence to use.

    " At the same time, patients with other problems didn't get diagnosed or treated. That's where some of those deaths came from, among other reasons, but it was all dubbed covid."

    I don't totally disagree. For instance I have seen reports that people suffering from cancer have been turned away from hospitals precluding them from getting chemo therapy. That said, I believe it is reasonable to conclude that COVID is the culprit when you compare excess deaths per week in relation with reported deaths via COVID.

    Excess Deaths

    Daily Deaths (Johns Hopkins)

    A side by side comparison of the US shows strong correlation.

    It's possible that some specific hospitals were crowded, but if so, why specific hospitals? Were all patients redirected there? Was there something different in the area?

    It's possible that patients were directed to certain hospitals. I'd need to brush up on the early response to the crisis on how patients were directed. If I had to make a guess, probably had to do with ER capacity and access to ventilation equipment.

    Like in Italy, where they did 5G testing prior to the outbreak and happened to use a new vaccine the previous year, which supposedly made people more susceptible to coronaviruses.

    There is no evidence to suggest 5G testing nor a new flu vaccine were contributing factors. Italy (and Spain for that matter) have a higher case-fatality ratio due to the age of their population which would put them at higher risk of dying.

    Spain
    Italy

    Well, there are doctors who question the existence of HIV or measles, like we're questioning this coronavirus right now. So this debate surrounds all of those viruses really.

    I would like to point out that just because a doctor disputes the existence of HIV or viruses in general, doesn't make them correct or a good doctor for that matter. The fact is we can "see" these viruses using electron microscopes and have sequenced genomes of them.

    Why not? What about mainstream media? It's not just about the data, but also how you interpret it, so I think it's useful to be aware of different conclusions. Another thing I've noticed is that MSM sometimes fails to cite their sources, while many other sites tend to be more consistent.

    You're absolutely right about how you interpret it... I prefer to see raw data and interpret myself rather than have someone tell me how I should think. MSM does fail to cite sources or draws incorrect conclusions based on bad data so I am always skeptical of what is initially reported. My problem with some of the smaller sites is that they tend to be agenda driven and often times are scientifically illiterate. Take for instance where the CDC listed 6% of death certificates as having COVID only. This was taken by a lot to mean that only 6% of died of COVID when in reality it overlooked the fact that many died of pneumonia, adult respiratory distress syndrome, and other respiratory illnesses which were caused by COVID.
  • NUKE Vinnivich [2304578]Vinnivich [2304578]
    • Vinnivich [2304578]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 33
    • Posts: 334
    • Karma: 33
    • Last Action: 10 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 21:54:15 - 18/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    "COVID is the culprit when you compare excess deaths per week in relation with reported deaths via COVID."
    As someone on the forums pointed out a few months ago, we'll have to wait until next year to well compare the statistics to previous years, which is why I haven't taken a closer look yet. I think I only saw significantly increased deaths among the elderly when I last checked, but I'll leave it at that right now as I've heard for and against arguments from both sides.

    "...If I had to make a guess, probably had to do with ER capacity and access to ventilation equipment."
    Would just like to point out that there are nurses (most in NY, some names), who have talked about improper use of ventilators and possible excess deaths or lung damage occurring because of it.

    "There is no evidence to suggest 5G testing nor a new flu vaccine were contributing factors."
    Does anyone actually look for such contributing factors though? The evidence I would just count in this case, are the overall health effects of 5G (or any EMF) and what has been said about Italy's flu vaccine.

    "Italy (and Spain for that matter) have a higher case-fatality ratio due to the age of their population which would put them at higher risk of dying."
    True, but so do many other countries with a lower death ratio, including Sweden. Yes, the population in Sweden might be generally less concentrated or people tend to keep more distance, but they didn't have the level of quarantine that Italy or Spain had. Could theoretically be a question of luck?

    "I would like to point out that just because a doctor disputes the existence of HIV or viruses in general, doesn't make them correct or a good doctor for that matter. The fact is we can "see" these viruses using electron microscopes and have sequenced genomes of them."
    Sure. I'm just saying, that the discussion has existed since Pasteur and the creation of germ theory and so there's a chance that a lot of what we know about viruses is misleading. Regarding isolating viruses and genome sequencing, look up Dr. Andrew Kaufman's videos/interviews. He claims it hasn't actually happened, because the procedure is flawed.

    "My problem with some of the smaller sites is that they tend to be agenda driven and often times are scientifically illiterate."
    I would actually say the same about MSM. Alternative sites actually publish interesting stuff which never makes it to the mainstream. I know what to expect from the MSM anyway, so I rarely read it, only when someone links to it.

    I've found globalresearch.ca, Jon Rappoport's Blog and sometimes davidicke.com to be pretty good regarding covid information. In overall, they say the Corbett Report is quality as well.

    "it overlooked the fact that many died of pneumonia, adult respiratory distress syndrome, and other respiratory illnesses which were caused by COVID."
    *Supposedly caused ;)
    I've noticed that they sometimes expect you to consider that yourself, which is also why they omit some stuff, which they think is obvious to their usual readership.
  • PoP angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 66
    • Posts: 1330
    • Karma: 1421
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 23:51:38 - 18/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Vinnivich [2304578]

    "COVID is the culprit when you compare excess deaths per week in relation with reported deaths via COVID."
    As someone on the forums pointed out a few months ago, we'll have to wait until next year to well compare the statistics to previous years, which is why I haven't taken a closer look yet. I think I only saw significantly increased deaths among the elderly when I last checked, but I'll leave it at that right now as I've heard for and against arguments from both sides.

    "...If I had to make a guess, probably had to do with ER capacity and access to ventilation equipment."
    Would just like to point out that there are nurses (most in NY, some names), who have talked about improper use of ventilators and possible excess deaths or lung damage occurring because of it.

    "There is no evidence to suggest 5G testing nor a new flu vaccine were contributing factors."
    Does anyone actually look for such contributing factors though? The evidence I would just count in this case, are the overall health effects of 5G (or any EMF) and what has been said about Italy's flu vaccine.

    "Italy (and Spain for that matter) have a higher case-fatality ratio due to the age of their population which would put them at higher risk of dying."
    True, but so do many other countries with a lower death ratio, including Sweden. Yes, the population in Sweden might be generally less concentrated or people tend to keep more distance, but they didn't have the level of quarantine that Italy or Spain had. Could theoretically be a question of luck?

    "I would like to point out that just because a doctor disputes the existence of HIV or viruses in general, doesn't make them correct or a good doctor for that matter. The fact is we can "see" these viruses using electron microscopes and have sequenced genomes of them."
    Sure. I'm just saying, that the discussion has existed since Pasteur and the creation of germ theory and so there's a chance that a lot of what we know about viruses is misleading. Regarding isolating viruses and genome sequencing, look up Dr. Andrew Kaufman's videos/interviews. He claims it hasn't actually happened, because the procedure is flawed.

    "My problem with some of the smaller sites is that they tend to be agenda driven and often times are scientifically illiterate."
    I would actually say the same about MSM. Alternative sites actually publish interesting stuff which never makes it to the mainstream. I know what to expect from the MSM anyway, so I rarely read it, only when someone links to it.

    I've found globalresearch.ca, Jon Rappoport's Blog and sometimes davidicke.com to be pretty good regarding covid information. In overall, they say the Corbett Report is quality as well.

    "it overlooked the fact that many died of pneumonia, adult respiratory distress syndrome, and other respiratory illnesses which were caused by COVID."
    *Supposedly caused ;)
    I've noticed that they sometimes expect you to consider that yourself, which is also why they omit some stuff, which they think is obvious to their usual readership.
    As someone on the forums pointed out a few months ago, we'll have to wait until next year to well compare the statistics to previous years, which is why I haven't taken a closer look yet.

    Except we don't have to wait. The link I posted looks at the total deaths in a given week and compares it to an average of the past 5 years. In this case, 2016 - 2019. You can even see the worse than normal 2017 flu season reflected on that chart.

    Would just like to point out that there are nurses (most in NY, some names), who have talked about improper use of ventilators and possible excess deaths or lung damage occurring because of it.

    This was a completely new illness with no standard of treatment. I would agree that this probably was a contributing factor early on. As we learned more, our treatment protocols adapted.

    Does anyone actually look for such contributing factors though? The evidence I would just count in this case, are the overall health effects of 5G (or any EMF) and what has been said about Italy's flu vaccine.

    I made a good faith effort to research health effects of 5G and nothing suggests it can cause respiratory failure which is what people have been dying of. With respect to Italy's flu vaccine, there is evidence to suggest that it had little to no impact.

    True, but so do many other countries with a lower death ratio, including Sweden. Yes, the population in Sweden might be generally less concentrated or people tend to keep more distance, but they didn't have the level of quarantine that Italy or Spain had. Could theoretically be a question of luck?

    Out of all of the Nordic countries, Sweden had the worst case-fatality ratio. Now I would be interested in seeing how access to preventative healthcare affected the outcome of folks.

    Sure. I'm just saying, that the discussion has existed since Pasteur and the creation of germ theory and so there's a chance that a lot of what we know about viruses is misleading. Regarding isolating viruses and genome sequencing, look up Dr. Andrew Kaufman's videos/interviews. He claims it hasn't actually happened, because the procedure is flawed.

    Considering Dr. Kaufman specializes in psychiatry, I thank him for his opinion but I wouldn't consider him a credible source.

    I would actually say the same about MSM. Alternative sites actually publish interesting stuff which never makes it to the mainstream. I know what to expect from the MSM anyway, so I rarely read it, only when someone links to it.

    I've found globalresearch.ca, Jon Rappoport's Blog and sometimes davidicke.com to be pretty good regarding covid information. In overall, they say the Corbett Report is quality as well.

    Looking at the aforementioned websites, I note that they tend to gravitate towards an anti-vaccination stance or are otherwise put out conspiracy theories. I'll stick to academic journals.

    *Supposedly caused ;)
    I've noticed that they sometimes expect you to consider that yourself, which is also why they omit some stuff, which they think is obvious to their usual readership.

    If not COVID, then what would be causing people to inexplicably die of respiratory illnesses? Also who is "they"? More power to you if you want to believe there is some grand conspiracy, however it doesn't make any sense to tank the world economy and kill a bunch of people.
  • DAM Sepulchrave [2092631]Sepulchrave [2092631]
    • Sepulchrave [2092631]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 90
    • Posts: 3835
    • Karma: 9743
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 02:01:40 - 19/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Blunt [2076337]

    Id trust a COVID vaccine about as much as id trust gas station sushi.

    They've lifted regulations, lowered the amount of testing, and are going to try and rush it to market. Vaccines under normal circumstances come with risks, but at least those risks are known to patients before hand.

    How can the manufacturer possibly know the long term effects without having long term testing? So essentially they're going to use the populace as guinie pigs, and will not be held accountable (which is nothing new to be honest) for any serious injuries or long term effects that their product may cause.

    Wonder how much profit will be made directly off the vaccine, on top of the 800+billion that has already been made by the top 600 or so people in our country, which include big pharma company entities like phizer and merck.

    And then all the contradiction numbers (only 6% of reported covid deaths, are actually COVID deaths), not to mention the incentivization program to get hospitals to over report covid for funding...

    all the pro vaccine, "this is just like polio and the flu vaccine" people can be the first in line for the clearly "for profit" vaccine being rushed to market, and then in 10 years when they start showing up with guillan barre syndrome, gastro intestinal problems, and other such issues they're never going to question where it stems from, and even if they did, there would be nothing they can do about it.

    Thats the shit the "pro-vaxxers" who have just as little clue as some anti-vaxxers don't realize. Its not just "they think it causes autism, what idiots", there are plenty of serious conditions that can be linked to vaccine use. Hell, there's an entire reporting system that over 50,000 people used last year to report serious Vax injuries, and those are only the ones reported, as most are overlooked or not realized until years down the line.

    So yea, call people who choose not to rush to take a little tested vaccine dumb, well call you the same, and go on living our lives not caring about each others medical issues. Nobody genuinely cares about your opinions on the topic, everyone mind is already made up. To even talk about it, is to hear an echo chamber to self flagulate, or to denigrate somebody else for their decisions... its never for the purpose of genuine discussion, so why even discuss it?

    End of rant, nobody needs to quote me, as im not likely to respond... im not changing your mind, your not changing mine, and sepulchrave is a super douche talking down from his pedestal as usual... and so it shall remain.
    "...and sepulchrave is a super douche talking down from his pedestal as usual..."

  • Atls Wavecrest [1989660]Wavecrest [1989660]
    • Wavecrest [1989660]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 25
    • Posts: 550
    • Karma: 508
    • Last Action: 10 hours
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 03:04:06 - 19/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    VolatileKitty [2599290]

    With epidemiology we clearly saw reductions in cases of particular virus' like Polio and measles and what not. Anti-vaxxers manage to twist information and cherry pick to make vaccines sound bad (E.g Autism rates have increased over the past decades so they assume vaccines are the cause of it. Remember:[Correlation =/= Causation])
    Most of us, have never been in an epidemic, much less a pandemic- So the majority have no real first hand experience at whether or not vaccines work or not. With the majority of the population immunized against the flu or whatever, antivaxxers benefit from herd immunity, so they dont get sick. They claim the benefits of herd immunity are really from their essential oils or juice cleanses or whatever.
    Anyway, now that covid cases/death rates went up dramatically (and will continue to do so due to incompetent governments) and theres no vaccine for it, will antivaxxers acknowledge the impact of having no vaccine against a particular virus?

    What are your thoughts?
    I don't think anything will change an anti-vaxxer's mind, unfortunately. 

    And while you're right--nothing has been at the same level as a global pandemic--there have been other big outbreaks in recent years: SARS, H1N1, Anthrax, Ebola, MERS... Honestly, there are always outbreaks. With international travel and the like, it's easier to spread sicknesses than ever before. If those didn't stop people from thinking vaccines are bad, covid certainly won't either.
  • PoP angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 66
    • Posts: 1330
    • Karma: 1421
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 12:28:29 - 19/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    VolatileKitty [2599290]

    With epidemiology we clearly saw reductions in cases of particular virus' like Polio and measles and what not. Anti-vaxxers manage to twist information and cherry pick to make vaccines sound bad (E.g Autism rates have increased over the past decades so they assume vaccines are the cause of it. Remember:[Correlation =/= Causation])
    Most of us, have never been in an epidemic, much less a pandemic- So the majority have no real first hand experience at whether or not vaccines work or not. With the majority of the population immunized against the flu or whatever, antivaxxers benefit from herd immunity, so they dont get sick. They claim the benefits of herd immunity are really from their essential oils or juice cleanses or whatever.
    Anyway, now that covid cases/death rates went up dramatically (and will continue to do so due to incompetent governments) and theres no vaccine for it, will antivaxxers acknowledge the impact of having no vaccine against a particular virus?

    What are your thoughts?

    Wavecrest [1989660]

    I don't think anything will change an anti-vaxxer's mind, unfortunately.

    And while you're right--nothing has been at the same level as a global pandemic--there have been other big outbreaks in recent years: SARS, H1N1, Anthrax, Ebola, MERS... Honestly, there are always outbreaks. With international travel and the like, it's easier to spread sicknesses than ever before. If those didn't stop people from thinking vaccines are bad, covid certainly won't either.
    You're probably right. I've noticed that people tend to have a particular position and won't let anything change their mind. The internet is a wild place to find others with the same wacky world view.
  • WPR DatuPuti [2393193]DatuPuti [2393193]
    • DatuPuti [2393193]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 45
    • Posts: 54
    • Karma: 13
    • Last Action: 3 hours
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 16:36:01 - 20/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    Image Not Found
    Last edited by DatuPuti on 15:49:07 - 23/05/21
  • PoP angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 66
    • Posts: 1330
    • Karma: 1421
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 16:44:27 - 20/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    DatuPuti [2393193]

    Image Not Found
    Context?
  • *No* RoGuEsHaDoW_ [2265426]RoGuEsHaDoW_ [2265426]
    • RoGuEsHaDoW_ [2265426]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 77
    • Posts: 243
    • Karma: 100
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 16:48:43 - 20/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    I believe vaccines are good. But I personally can’t understand the panic caused by COVID. Right now what 0.07% of the USA population has died? How is that a pandemic? I wear my mask to protect myself and others. But still I can’t shake the feeling that I would be likely to die in a car accident then from COVID.
  • PoP angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 66
    • Posts: 1330
    • Karma: 1421
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 17:25:41 - 20/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    RoGuEsHaDoW_ [2265426]

    I believe vaccines are good. But I personally can’t understand the panic caused by COVID. Right now what 0.07% of the USA population has died? How is that a pandemic? I wear my mask to protect myself and others. But still I can’t shake the feeling that I would be likely to die in a car accident then from COVID.
    Certainly easy to feel that way and I wouldn't blame you.

    One way to look at it is in terms of deaths per 100,000 people. Right now in the US we are at 60.90 deaths per 100k. In the context of total deaths in a given year, COVID is the 3rd leading cause of death (behind cancer and heart disease) and we've really only had this going on for 6 months.

    Another thing to consider is that this is still not even close to being contained and it really hasn't had total spread through the population. Being generous with the number of cases we have due to asymptomatic carriers, let's say the US total is really multiplied by a factor of 10 (no science here... just a random number since asymptomatic cases are hard to track). This means that the US would have some 67 million cases (again, not saying we actually do...) or about 20% of the population is/was infected. A linear model (multiply current deaths by 5 at 100% infection) would result in about a million deaths.

    While this is 1/3 of a percent of the overall population, that is still a staggering number. That's more than twice the number of deaths during WWII or over 330 September 11's.
  • NUKE Vinnivich [2304578]Vinnivich [2304578]
    • Vinnivich [2304578]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 33
    • Posts: 334
    • Karma: 33
    • Last Action: 10 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 1
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 02:17:57 - 21/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Vinnivich [2304578]

    "COVID is the culprit when you compare excess deaths per week in relation with reported deaths via COVID."
    As someone on the forums pointed out a few months ago, we'll have to wait until next year to well compare the statistics to previous years, which is why I haven't taken a closer look yet. I think I only saw significantly increased deaths among the elderly when I last checked, but I'll leave it at that right now as I've heard for and against arguments from both sides.

    "...If I had to make a guess, probably had to do with ER capacity and access to ventilation equipment."
    Would just like to point out that there are nurses (most in NY, some names), who have talked about improper use of ventilators and possible excess deaths or lung damage occurring because of it.

    "There is no evidence to suggest 5G testing nor a new flu vaccine were contributing factors."
    Does anyone actually look for such contributing factors though? The evidence I would just count in this case, are the overall health effects of 5G (or any EMF) and what has been said about Italy's flu vaccine.

    "Italy (and Spain for that matter) have a higher case-fatality ratio due to the age of their population which would put them at higher risk of dying."
    True, but so do many other countries with a lower death ratio, including Sweden. Yes, the population in Sweden might be generally less concentrated or people tend to keep more distance, but they didn't have the level of quarantine that Italy or Spain had. Could theoretically be a question of luck?

    "I would like to point out that just because a doctor disputes the existence of HIV or viruses in general, doesn't make them correct or a good doctor for that matter. The fact is we can "see" these viruses using electron microscopes and have sequenced genomes of them."
    Sure. I'm just saying, that the discussion has existed since Pasteur and the creation of germ theory and so there's a chance that a lot of what we know about viruses is misleading. Regarding isolating viruses and genome sequencing, look up Dr. Andrew Kaufman's videos/interviews. He claims it hasn't actually happened, because the procedure is flawed.

    "My problem with some of the smaller sites is that they tend to be agenda driven and often times are scientifically illiterate."
    I would actually say the same about MSM. Alternative sites actually publish interesting stuff which never makes it to the mainstream. I know what to expect from the MSM anyway, so I rarely read it, only when someone links to it.

    I've found globalresearch.ca, Jon Rappoport's Blog and sometimes davidicke.com to be pretty good regarding covid information. In overall, they say the Corbett Report is quality as well.

    "it overlooked the fact that many died of pneumonia, adult respiratory distress syndrome, and other respiratory illnesses which were caused by COVID."
    *Supposedly caused ;)
    I've noticed that they sometimes expect you to consider that yourself, which is also why they omit some stuff, which they think is obvious to their usual readership.

    angrysc0tsman12 [1099272]

    As someone on the forums pointed out a few months ago, we'll have to wait until next year to well compare the statistics to previous years, which is why I haven't taken a closer look yet.

    Except we don't have to wait. The link I posted looks at the total deaths in a given week and compares it to an average of the past 5 years. In this case, 2016 - 2019. You can even see the worse than normal 2017 flu season reflected on that chart.

    Would just like to point out that there are nurses (most in NY, some names), who have talked about improper use of ventilators and possible excess deaths or lung damage occurring because of it.

    This was a completely new illness with no standard of treatment. I would agree that this probably was a contributing factor early on. As we learned more, our treatment protocols adapted.

    Does anyone actually look for such contributing factors though? The evidence I would just count in this case, are the overall health effects of 5G (or any EMF) and what has been said about Italy's flu vaccine.

    I made a good faith effort to research health effects of 5G and nothing suggests it can cause respiratory failure which is what people have been dying of. With respect to Italy's flu vaccine, there is evidence to suggest that it had little to no impact.

    True, but so do many other countries with a lower death ratio, including Sweden. Yes, the population in Sweden might be generally less concentrated or people tend to keep more distance, but they didn't have the level of quarantine that Italy or Spain had. Could theoretically be a question of luck?

    Out of all of the Nordic countries, Sweden had the worst case-fatality ratio. Now I would be interested in seeing how access to preventative healthcare affected the outcome of folks.

    Sure. I'm just saying, that the discussion has existed since Pasteur and the creation of germ theory and so there's a chance that a lot of what we know about viruses is misleading. Regarding isolating viruses and genome sequencing, look up Dr. Andrew Kaufman's videos/interviews. He claims it hasn't actually happened, because the procedure is flawed.

    Considering Dr. Kaufman specializes in psychiatry, I thank him for his opinion but I wouldn't consider him a credible source.

    I would actually say the same about MSM. Alternative sites actually publish interesting stuff which never makes it to the mainstream. I know what to expect from the MSM anyway, so I rarely read it, only when someone links to it.

    I've found globalresearch.ca, Jon Rappoport's Blog and sometimes davidicke.com to be pretty good regarding covid information. In overall, they say the Corbett Report is quality as well.

    Looking at the aforementioned websites, I note that they tend to gravitate towards an anti-vaccination stance or are otherwise put out conspiracy theories. I'll stick to academic journals.

    *Supposedly caused ;)
    I've noticed that they sometimes expect you to consider that yourself, which is also why they omit some stuff, which they think is obvious to their usual readership.

    If not COVID, then what would be causing people to inexplicably die of respiratory illnesses? Also who is "they"? More power to you if you want to believe there is some grand conspiracy, however it doesn't make any sense to tank the world economy and kill a bunch of people.
    Been busy and haven't had the time to thoroughly look at the data, but I took note of the overall increased deaths in the US this year, so I'll try to address that and offer other explanations:
    • critically ill patients were driven out of hospitals or denied access when COVID orders arrived
    • 'Do not resuscitate' used by default (at least in UK)
    • increased number of suicides (a study also mentions this issue during previous pandemics)
    • due to faulty tests, patients without covid mistreated as covid patients
    • Use of ventilators when not necessary + risks associated with it
    • bad flu season on top of it?
    Personally, I think that might cover it. As for why the tests are faulty, see what the inventor of the test, Kary Mullis, has said about it as well as how the PCR and anti-body test have been met with the FDA. All of that detailed in an interview here.

    "This was a completely new illness with no standard of treatment. I would agree that this probably was a contributing factor early on. As we learned more, our treatment protocols adapted."
    What do you mean by that exactly? That doctors everywhere became more competent? What about the various existing, more effective treatments than ventilators - are they being used? Vitamin-C, hydroxychloroquine, MMS (in Bolivia for example) etc.

    "I made a good faith effort to research health effects of 5G and nothing suggests it can cause respiratory failure which is what people have been dying of."
    EMF in general can disrupt health and manifest in various symptoms, depending on the person, so I think it might be attributed to some covid deaths as well. I mean, we are counting all those other comorbidities, but not EMF. Although they probably can't check if it's a factor anyway...
    I guess I should mention that 5G at 60GHz has been shown to affect oxygen molecules and so might affect their absorbtion by the lungs. I won't go into the details and afaik there are no studies about the exact relation to respiratory disease, but it's something you can investigate if you're interested.

    "With respect to Italy's flu vaccine, there is evidence to suggest that it had little to no impact."
    Hmm ok, the study called it the QIV vaccine while the source I listed mentioned VIQCC. I take it they are the same then?

    "Considering Dr. Kaufman specializes in psychiatry, I thank him for his opinion but I wouldn't consider him a credible source."
    I think he was a medical instructor of hematology and oncology at some point as well, but I can understand your skepticism.

    "I've noticed that they sometimes expect you to consider that yourself, which is also why they omit some stuff, which they think is obvious to their usual readership."
    Maybe to clarify my statement, 'they' was meant to signify 'alternative media sites' in that context. So what I meant was that many alt. media sites expect you to consider that the diseases you listed were not caused by covid and so only 6% of cases are confirmed cases without any potential contributing factors, assuming the tests are even viable.
    If you want to know the why and who of this conspiracy, I would direct you again to David Icke, specifically the interviews with LondonReal.
  • WPR DatuPuti [2393193]DatuPuti [2393193]
    • DatuPuti [2393193]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 45
    • Posts: 54
    • Karma: 13
    • Last Action: 3 hours
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 14:31:19 - 21/09/20 (1 year ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    Summarize: You cannot please anyone pro vaccine or anti vaccine or both or none believe what you want to believe... Humans have Love-Hate relationship to everything (Humans to Humans hurt, help, kill each other) ... Humans are fragile but good in adaptation to survive if a humans didn't learn to adapt they die simple as that...
    Virus only survive with a living host in any organism and in biology humans are organism.
    Just like an organism humans constantly strive to grow and improve to survive... Organism vs Organism/ Organism vs Virus... Vaccine only helps humans in training like "sparring with the virus" to prepare in a real fight on that virus...
    (Note: I'm not good at explaining things)
Reply
Thread Title: