Is science infallible or is science for sale | Science | TORN
Is science infallible or is science for sale
    • LawOfOne [266775]
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    Thread created on 08:56:30 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    Last replied 17:39:56 - 28/12/18 (5 years ago)
    In terms of some people worshiping science as if it was the New God and does no wrong or is science for sale. Which is more accurate 

    Pretty simple right?
    • Is science for sale or is science infallible?
    • Science is for sale
    • Science is infallible
    Total number of votes: 39
    Last edited by LawOfOne on 20:18:50 - 19/01/18

     

    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 14:04:28 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    Its a YUGE fecking gravy train!!



    Choooooo Chooooooo
    Last edited by PopadaPill on 14:37:36 - 19/01/18
    • Ninivah [1950421]
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    Posted on 15:40:39 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    I'd say you're asking the wrong question.

    The way of the scientific method makes it so it's inherently self-correcting. Something can be thought as true with the evidence available but should new evidence surface to disprove the existing theories, everything gets scrutinized again and re-evaluated. Science experiments are replicated by numerous people all over the world several times so if something is true, the results should lead to the same conclusion regardless of who does the experiment. A lying scientist can easily be caught by those means.

    Yes, I'm mental. 

    No, it's okay.

     

     

     

    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 17:15:00 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    If some Nasa ******* tells everyone theres a planet out there where it rains monkey farts its taken as true..for now,when i know its all horsehit without any experiment or another scientist telling me so..its a gift
    • Louis_de_Pointe [1963196]
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    Posted on 18:05:10 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    Science is not infallible.

    It is a system of working towards answers.

    Is it for sale?

    Evidently yes, weapons, medical, space travel....all for sale.

    Pollution and big business and politics is a very serious example of how science can be ****ed with add in some lawyers and you got a serious global issue now which my generation was taught would happen and the theory was that my generation (least in my educational experience) would do something about it before it got to the state it is now.
    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 18:10:24 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    you will just get the bill...and may be a new phone and gaming console
    • Multipass [1955315]
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    Posted on 18:23:18 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    Not infallible - otherwise it wouldn't be science. But science brought you the phone or computer you typed this on, the internet that connects you to the Torn servers so you can you post your question and a billion other things that you figuratively can't live without and in many cases, may literally not be alive without. Science is progress.

    As for wether it's for sale, you'll probably always be able to find some scientist with some crazy theory but because of peer review, they are pretty much relegated to the fringe. If there is concencus among the scientific community, that will usually represent humanity's current best answer.
    • BlnkSugarSocket [2018522]
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    Posted on 18:29:11 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    Science is a concept, more precisely a methodology to gain information. A concept cannot be fallible.

    Incorrect, imprecise, or otherwise neglegent application of the method can cause the system to fail. Ideally, everyone would have proper controls, and no interest in results, have no political or social/prestige interests, no funding or compensation interests, no thoughts of wining some prestigious recognition or any other such distractions while practising what they would call science. In all too many cases, that is not the case and bias can creep in, a desire to fudge some data, and so on.

    The only logical conclusion, then, is that scientists and, perhaps, their promoters, are fallible, but that "science" is not.
    Last edited by BlnkSugarSocket on 18:40:04 - 19/01/18
    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 19:01:05 - 19/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    O Hollywood

    Wont get fooled again
    • LawOfOne [266775]
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    Posted on 07:40:28 - 20/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.

     

    • OlafderGeiger [1998145]
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    Posted on 21:33:59 - 21/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    Oh my science!

    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 12:16:44 - 23/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    SCIENCE!!

    Pigs in space!
    Last edited by PopadaPill on 12:50:59 - 23/01/18
    • Quickdraw [915500]
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    Posted on 18:27:50 - 28/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    LawOfOne [266775]

    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.
    Well that is true to people who dont understand how the process works. We are in a difficult situation currently because scientific advances have become so complex that the average person doesnt understand them. This puts us in a situation where people feel like their only choice is to pick which "authority" to trust. But that is not the only choice, it is just the easy choice. The beautiful thing about science is that it is inherently anti-authoritarian. We dont depend on an authority to tell us what the answer is, we can go out and measure it ourselves. So if you think scientists are corrupt and lying to you, prove it! Go look at the data yourself. Most data nowadays is posted online. Analyze their data and if you come to a different conclusion figure out WHY. Are you processing the data correctly? Are you making an invalid assumption? All of this might take a couple of years to truly understand, but once you do you will no longer have to think of science as "god" or some magical process, because it is rooted in what we physically observe and anybody can go observe the same thing.
    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 11:27:12 - 30/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    LOL^

    whatta load of horseshit
    Last edited by PopadaPill on 11:27:48 - 30/01/18
    • LawOfOne [266775]
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    Posted on 04:37:00 - 31/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    LawOfOne [266775]

    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well that is true to people who dont understand how the process works. We are in a difficult situation currently because scientific advances have become so complex that the average person doesnt understand them. This puts us in a situation where people feel like their only choice is to pick which "authority" to trust. But that is not the only choice, it is just the easy choice. The beautiful thing about science is that it is inherently anti-authoritarian. We dont depend on an authority to tell us what the answer is, we can go out and measure it ourselves. So if you think scientists are corrupt and lying to you, prove it! Go look at the data yourself. Most data nowadays is posted online. Analyze their data and if you come to a different conclusion figure out WHY. Are you processing the data correctly? Are you making an invalid assumption? All of this might take a couple of years to truly understand, but once you do you will no longer have to think of science as "god" or some magical process, because it is rooted in what we physically observe and anybody can go observe the same thing.
    Im sure! I have no idea how a laser works or CERN. I do know that people understand that money can buy you what ever you'd like and you can slap the word Science on it and people will worship it as if it were a Deity.

     

    • Quickdraw [915500]
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    Posted on 16:42:00 - 31/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    LawOfOne [266775]

    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well that is true to people who dont understand how the process works. We are in a difficult situation currently because scientific advances have become so complex that the average person doesnt understand them. This puts us in a situation where people feel like their only choice is to pick which "authority" to trust. But that is not the only choice, it is just the easy choice. The beautiful thing about science is that it is inherently anti-authoritarian. We dont depend on an authority to tell us what the answer is, we can go out and measure it ourselves. So if you think scientists are corrupt and lying to you, prove it! Go look at the data yourself. Most data nowadays is posted online. Analyze their data and if you come to a different conclusion figure out WHY. Are you processing the data correctly? Are you making an invalid assumption? All of this might take a couple of years to truly understand, but once you do you will no longer have to think of science as "god" or some magical process, because it is rooted in what we physically observe and anybody can go observe the same thing.

    LawOfOne [266775]

    Im sure! I have no idea how a laser works or CERN. I do know that people understand that money can buy you what ever you'd like and you can slap the word Science on it and people will worship it as if it were a Deity.

    Well I would encourage you to look those things up then. There are plenty of free courses online to help people understand the basic principles. Can you provide some examples of slapping the word science on something that is not supported by the evidence? I am not totally sure what you are referring to. Maybe it seems to you like people are worshipping it like a diety because you dont understand the evidence that went in to supporting that position?

    I can think of many examples of people abusing science to sell stuff (think of infomertials), but I think most people recognize that those are bullshit. People do try to misrepresent science to advance their own agendas so it is very important that we strive to understand science as part of our civic duty.

    Worshipping a scientific finding like a diety is certainly wrong and would show a deep misunderstanding of the scientific process. Some of that exists and I strongly urge people to look into the evidence and think like a scientist themselves.
    • PopadaPill [900338]
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    Posted on 16:58:29 - 31/01/18 (6 years ago)
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    I have...thats how i got to the point of view its a gravy train.

    blinded
    Last edited by PopadaPill on 19:52:16 - 31/01/18
    • LawOfOne [266775]
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    Posted on 07:21:03 - 01/02/18 (6 years ago)
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    LawOfOne [266775]

    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well that is true to people who dont understand how the process works. We are in a difficult situation currently because scientific advances have become so complex that the average person doesnt understand them. This puts us in a situation where people feel like their only choice is to pick which "authority" to trust. But that is not the only choice, it is just the easy choice. The beautiful thing about science is that it is inherently anti-authoritarian. We dont depend on an authority to tell us what the answer is, we can go out and measure it ourselves. So if you think scientists are corrupt and lying to you, prove it! Go look at the data yourself. Most data nowadays is posted online. Analyze their data and if you come to a different conclusion figure out WHY. Are you processing the data correctly? Are you making an invalid assumption? All of this might take a couple of years to truly understand, but once you do you will no longer have to think of science as "god" or some magical process, because it is rooted in what we physically observe and anybody can go observe the same thing.

    LawOfOne [266775]

    Im sure! I have no idea how a laser works or CERN. I do know that people understand that money can buy you what ever you'd like and you can slap the word Science on it and people will worship it as if it were a Deity.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well I would encourage you to look those things up then. There are plenty of free courses online to help people understand the basic principles. Can you provide some examples of slapping the word science on something that is not supported by the evidence? I am not totally sure what you are referring to. Maybe it seems to you like people are worshipping it like a diety because you dont understand the evidence that went in to supporting that position?

    I can think of many examples of people abusing science to sell stuff (think of infomertials), but I think most people recognize that those are bullshit. People do try to misrepresent science to advance their own agendas so it is very important that we strive to understand science as part of our civic duty.

    Worshipping a scientific finding like a diety is certainly wrong and would show a deep misunderstanding of the scientific process. Some of that exists and I strongly urge people to look into the evidence and think like a scientist themselves.
    I promise you how CERN works or lasers work will never enrich my life in anyway. 

    Peer reviewed studies with conflicting results or scientists are pissed off and coming out on record saying most studies findings can't be replicated, cherry picked data that your client. How can one vaccine study say vaccines are perfectly safe and another says they are deadly? This type of thing is all over Google and the news, however you choose to get it. Studies that said tobacco was safe for decades.

    You see it all the time of facebook, people will quote some study that says peanut butter is great for your liver and you go look at the study it was funded by the peanut growers association of america and most people will just not even look into it because science says its true, it must be true. If a Company contracts a study and says they want a positive outcome the study will be positive one way or another.

     

    • Quickdraw [915500]
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    Posted on 00:28:13 - 02/02/18 (6 years ago)
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    LawOfOne [266775]

    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well that is true to people who dont understand how the process works. We are in a difficult situation currently because scientific advances have become so complex that the average person doesnt understand them. This puts us in a situation where people feel like their only choice is to pick which "authority" to trust. But that is not the only choice, it is just the easy choice. The beautiful thing about science is that it is inherently anti-authoritarian. We dont depend on an authority to tell us what the answer is, we can go out and measure it ourselves. So if you think scientists are corrupt and lying to you, prove it! Go look at the data yourself. Most data nowadays is posted online. Analyze their data and if you come to a different conclusion figure out WHY. Are you processing the data correctly? Are you making an invalid assumption? All of this might take a couple of years to truly understand, but once you do you will no longer have to think of science as "god" or some magical process, because it is rooted in what we physically observe and anybody can go observe the same thing.

    LawOfOne [266775]

    Im sure! I have no idea how a laser works or CERN. I do know that people understand that money can buy you what ever you'd like and you can slap the word Science on it and people will worship it as if it were a Deity.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well I would encourage you to look those things up then. There are plenty of free courses online to help people understand the basic principles. Can you provide some examples of slapping the word science on something that is not supported by the evidence? I am not totally sure what you are referring to. Maybe it seems to you like people are worshipping it like a diety because you dont understand the evidence that went in to supporting that position?

    I can think of many examples of people abusing science to sell stuff (think of infomertials), but I think most people recognize that those are bullshit. People do try to misrepresent science to advance their own agendas so it is very important that we strive to understand science as part of our civic duty.

    Worshipping a scientific finding like a diety is certainly wrong and would show a deep misunderstanding of the scientific process. Some of that exists and I strongly urge people to look into the evidence and think like a scientist themselves.

    LawOfOne [266775]

    I promise you how CERN works or lasers work will never enrich my life in anyway.

    Peer reviewed studies with conflicting results or scientists are pissed off and coming out on record saying most studies findings can't be replicated, cherry picked data that your client. How can one vaccine study say vaccines are perfectly safe and another says they are deadly? This type of thing is all over Google and the news, however you choose to get it. Studies that said tobacco was safe for decades.

    You see it all the time of facebook, people will quote some study that says peanut butter is great for your liver and you go look at the study it was funded by the peanut growers association of america and most people will just not even look into it because science says its true, it must be true. If a Company contracts a study and says they want a positive outcome the study will be positive one way or another.
    I think your life would be deeply enriched by understanding how science works and what the scientific process is. Without the scientific process you have no way of determining what is true or not, so you are totally dependant on somebody else dictating to you what is true or not. This makes it awfully easy to manipulate you (I am using "you" in a general sense, not trying to make you feel bad), which I am sure you do not want.

    Most of the problems that you brought up are a result of poor scientific reporting by journalists. Very few journalists have any scientific training at all so their coverage of it is naturally poor. They often misrepresent results to get catchier headlines. One study is not definitive either, but articles like you bring up often talk as if it were. Lets use your peanut example. I am going to make up all the following results to provide an illustration. Say one study measures the amount of toxins in peoples urine and finds that eating peanuts lowers the amount of toxins in urine. They then suggest that this evidence might support the idea of improved liver performance. The study found some evidence and made a suggestion to the larger scientific community to investigate further. Somebody who doesnt understand the process then writes an article claiming "science says peanuts are good for your liver" even though the first study never said that, they suggested it m8ght be true. Then another study looks at liver activity and finds that peanuts cause your liver to work super hard. This removes more toxins from y9ur body, but stresses your liver out. So another article is written now claiming "peanuts are bad for your liver". If you just read the reporting you would think that tue 2 studies contradicted each other, but in reality they are entirely consistent. This type of thing happens in almost all science reporting I have seen. This is why it is so important for the gemeral population to understand the scientific process.

    The reproducability problem is different. This comes from a variety of sources and is hard to explain in a forum, but I will try. First, scientists are incentivized to always do something new. So a scientist might publish a paper with a new finding that was true in the very specific place and conditions that they studied. But when other people go to try to confirm this finding, they cannot. The finding would then be deemed un reproducable. That sounds bad, but ultimately whatever that finding was did not have a lot of evidence to support it so the idea does not persist. It is corrected by the subsequebt studies that could not reproduce the results. That is how science works, it is an interative process where ideas are proposed and rejected until we find an emergent truth. The problem comes when people dont understand the process and try to cherry pick results. Say 10 years after this un reproduceable study was published, some journalist or politician goes back and quotes it as evidence to support their position. That would be wrong because the larger body of evidence shows it is not true. This is what happened with that vaccine autism study. After that study was completed, other scientists found out that the author was wrong and showed how. That first author who was wrong got fired, but year later peole still quote his work even though it has been showed incorrect.
    • LawOfOne [266775]
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    Posted on 02:25:55 - 02/02/18 (6 years ago)
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    LawOfOne [266775]

    I choose science is for sale to the highest bidder to say whatever the purchaser wants as opposed to science is the new God everyone worships. Anyone can say anything is true because science is never wrong and the studies used science.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well that is true to people who dont understand how the process works. We are in a difficult situation currently because scientific advances have become so complex that the average person doesnt understand them. This puts us in a situation where people feel like their only choice is to pick which "authority" to trust. But that is not the only choice, it is just the easy choice. The beautiful thing about science is that it is inherently anti-authoritarian. We dont depend on an authority to tell us what the answer is, we can go out and measure it ourselves. So if you think scientists are corrupt and lying to you, prove it! Go look at the data yourself. Most data nowadays is posted online. Analyze their data and if you come to a different conclusion figure out WHY. Are you processing the data correctly? Are you making an invalid assumption? All of this might take a couple of years to truly understand, but once you do you will no longer have to think of science as "god" or some magical process, because it is rooted in what we physically observe and anybody can go observe the same thing.

    LawOfOne [266775]

    Im sure! I have no idea how a laser works or CERN. I do know that people understand that money can buy you what ever you'd like and you can slap the word Science on it and people will worship it as if it were a Deity.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    Well I would encourage you to look those things up then. There are plenty of free courses online to help people understand the basic principles. Can you provide some examples of slapping the word science on something that is not supported by the evidence? I am not totally sure what you are referring to. Maybe it seems to you like people are worshipping it like a diety because you dont understand the evidence that went in to supporting that position?

    I can think of many examples of people abusing science to sell stuff (think of infomertials), but I think most people recognize that those are bullshit. People do try to misrepresent science to advance their own agendas so it is very important that we strive to understand science as part of our civic duty.

    Worshipping a scientific finding like a diety is certainly wrong and would show a deep misunderstanding of the scientific process. Some of that exists and I strongly urge people to look into the evidence and think like a scientist themselves.

    LawOfOne [266775]

    I promise you how CERN works or lasers work will never enrich my life in anyway.

    Peer reviewed studies with conflicting results or scientists are pissed off and coming out on record saying most studies findings can't be replicated, cherry picked data that your client. How can one vaccine study say vaccines are perfectly safe and another says they are deadly? This type of thing is all over Google and the news, however you choose to get it. Studies that said tobacco was safe for decades.

    You see it all the time of facebook, people will quote some study that says peanut butter is great for your liver and you go look at the study it was funded by the peanut growers association of america and most people will just not even look into it because science says its true, it must be true. If a Company contracts a study and says they want a positive outcome the study will be positive one way or another.

    Quickdraw [915500]

    I think your life would be deeply enriched by understanding how science works and what the scientific process is. Without the scientific process you have no way of determining what is true or not, so you are totally dependant on somebody else dictating to you what is true or not. This makes it awfully easy to manipulate you (I am using "you" in a general sense, not trying to make you feel bad), which I am sure you do not want.

    Most of the problems that you brought up are a result of poor scientific reporting by journalists. Very few journalists have any scientific training at all so their coverage of it is naturally poor. They often misrepresent results to get catchier headlines. One study is not definitive either, but articles like you bring up often talk as if it were. Lets use your peanut example. I am going to make up all the following results to provide an illustration. Say one study measures the amount of toxins in peoples urine and finds that eating peanuts lowers the amount of toxins in urine. They then suggest that this evidence might support the idea of improved liver performance. The study found some evidence and made a suggestion to the larger scientific community to investigate further. Somebody who doesnt understand the process then writes an article claiming "science says peanuts are good for your liver" even though the first study never said that, they suggested it m8ght be true. Then another study looks at liver activity and finds that peanuts cause your liver to work super hard. This removes more toxins from y9ur body, but stresses your liver out. So another article is written now claiming "peanuts are bad for your liver". If you just read the reporting you would think that tue 2 studies contradicted each other, but in reality they are entirely consistent. This type of thing happens in almost all science reporting I have seen. This is why it is so important for the gemeral population to understand the scientific process.

    The reproducability problem is different. This comes from a variety of sources and is hard to explain in a forum, but I will try. First, scientists are incentivized to always do something new. So a scientist might publish a paper with a new finding that was true in the very specific place and conditions that they studied. But when other people go to try to confirm this finding, they cannot. The finding would then be deemed un reproducable. That sounds bad, but ultimately whatever that finding was did not have a lot of evidence to support it so the idea does not persist. It is corrected by the subsequebt studies that could not reproduce the results. That is how science works, it is an interative process where ideas are proposed and rejected until we find an emergent truth. The problem comes when people dont understand the process and try to cherry pick results. Say 10 years after this un reproduceable study was published, some journalist or politician goes back and quotes it as evidence to support their position. That would be wrong because the larger body of evidence shows it is not true. This is what happened with that vaccine autism study. After that study was completed, other scientists found out that the author was wrong and showed how. That first author who was wrong got fired, but year later peole still quote his work even though it has been showed incorrect.
    I don't need science to not be naive. What kind of point is that? Finding out what subatomic particles come from smashing gold atoms together will have absolutely zero impact on my life ever. If and when they find a Wimp they might research it and find some way to change the world after I am dead but that would happen with or without my study of the subject.

    So you are saying you have never read 2 studies that contradict each other? Ok...

    If a research firm does not find the conclusions that the company wants do you honestly think that company will get repeat business from that holding company or the more likely scenario, they will find someone that finds the conclusion they want after investing millions into a product?

    The problem that I am referring to is people, like the media, use sciences "infallibility" to push their ideas of the truth, a product or worse. Like I said which is more true...there are many studies that have been completely proven as cherry picked data or out right bunk studies. Like I said the Tobacco and vaccine have been caught red handed pushing bunk science. The idea that science cant be bought is absurd, if that is what you are trying to represent.

     

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