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Replacing Random Chance in Revives
  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 18:24:31 - 01/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 19:08:28 - 03/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 16:22:13 - 05/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    Posted on 17:06:21 - 05/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    AshleyT [1432316]

    TL;DR: Replace the revive chance system with a traditional cooldown system, but with a way that revive skill remains a factor.

    EditL By suggestion of a poster, I have moved my explaination of my reasons for wanting this change to the bottom of the post

    My Proposed Solution/Replacement

    The Solution I believe would be better than the old or new system still keeps revive skill relevant, which I believe is ultimately a good thing for reviving, there should be a curve, and a way to improve your abilities.

    The health given by reviver skill should remain untouched but given a new cap, 20% health should be the minimum health restored by a reviver, regardless of skill. 1% HP revives are useless in warfare, and no reviver should ever have an ability that feels useless. It would be useful for Overdoses and Crime failures but that's not the main source of hospitalisation in Torn, so it should not be the main target of any revive changes. Also as a side note, you have to be a brain surgeon to even unlock the ability to revive. I doubt someone who is good enough to be a brain surgeon is only reviving someone for 1% health.

    The Chance system should be scrapped entirely. It hurts the wrong side of revives. How I would replace it is this:

    • A new cooldown, 24 hours long to match the current recovery of revive chance. This Cooldown however shall be split into 6 hour segments

    • Revive Skill will dictate which segments you can revive into. In other words, if your revive skill is low, you could only revive someone if their cooldown is below the first 6 hour segment limit, while high skill revivers can revive until the end of the 24H cap

    • Reviver Experience gain will need to be reworked. It should now reward 3.5x the amount a 90% chance revive currently gives, although the exact number could be tweaked. The current system rewards more gain for higher risk revives so I see this as a requirement if this suggestion is to be implemented

    For how the Segments shall work:
    • First Segment, 6 hours. Revivers of skills from 0 to 24.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Second Segment, 12 hours. Revivers of skills from 25 to 49.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Third Segment, 18 hours. Revivers of skills from 50 to 74.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Fourth Segment, 24 hours. Revivers of skills from 75 to 100 can revive up to this limit
    This will ensure that reviver skill remains an important part of reviving, without needlessly punishing low skill revivers so they are always relevant and able to find people willing to accept their help so they can develop their skill.

    I did consider a system where the revives are guaranteed but the chance system applied to the amount of health recovered, but I do not think that random chance has a place in revives given their inherent high cost without the faction boosts.

    Possible Optional Change: Lowering reliance on factions for revives

    As it stands right now, factions are the only way to reduce the energy cost of a revive. This one fact is why revive factions even exist today. If there were alternate methods for obtaining the bonus, there would be less need for revive factions to exist and instead there would just be revive teams inside regular factions and faction families, more in like with what I assume is Chedburn's vision for more balanced warfare is.

    I believe that more methods for achieving this bonus should be created, BUT it should operate on Highest bonus takes priority, rather than having them add on to each other. Having these bonuses all add together would break the system again as people could combine them all to make overpowered revives with very low cost.

    The Bonuses for reducing the Energy Cost of Revives
    • Revive skill, for every 10 skill you gain you should have a reduction of 5e to your revive cost, resulting in only reaching 25e revives at 100 skill if not in a faction
    • Medical facilities on a PI for either the Reviver or the target of the Revive should reduce revive cost to 60e, 50e if a Doctor is hired as staff. This might also require that Medical facilities be made available for lower properties too, with some properties unable to hire the Doctor staff member so the bonus of health regeneration is not applied.
    • Merits (I don't agree with this one, but I felt it would be good to include as an idea) with a 5e reduction per merit.
    • Combining a revive with a medical item (This was more of a spitball idea), the reviver can choose to combine a medical item with the revive, with small first aid kits reducing cost to 65e, regular first aid kits reducing to 50e and morphine reducing to 40e, however I'm not sure how this should interact with medical cooldown so this is under-developed
    The Problems I have with the new system

    The new system is intended to provide a more fair warring experience, I personally think it has completely failed in this regard. Chedburn has pushed many of these changes lately to reduce outside interference in warring, but they all disproportionately affect smaller factions over the larger ones Chedburn is actually attempting to reel in. I believe part of the reason this is happening is because the comittee is almost, if not entirely, made up of High stat Veteran players since they are the most dedicated, and almost half of them are from the same HOF faction (To my knowledge, if this is incorrect, my apologies) making the comittee incredibly, if not intentionally, biased towards the big factions. The updates constantly having disproportionate effects seems to be proof of that. It is hard to really solve this since lower tier players don't often have the dedication to seek a comittee spot.

    The new system also hurts revivers more than it hurts faction fighters with this random chance system that was introduced. It doesn't limit revives that much, you just need more revivers and higher skill revivers to get more revives now since it's capped at 1% chance but it takes quite a lot of revives to get down that far. The intention to limit revives is clear, but the only people who are actually going to hit that low a chance are the lower statted and smaller factions because they need every effective fighter they have, while high tier factions can be fine even if 90% of their fighting force is combat ineffective from sheer stats and size alone.

    The random chance of the system is also a major flaw. It makes building revive skill as well as actually unlocking revive bonuses for factions incredibly difficult. This has caused the barrier for entry to reviving to be massively built up when the entry point should be the low point, and higher up should be more difficult. The base cost of a revive is 75E, that means that a beginner reviver has a cap of 90% chance to revive and can only revive once before being out of E for revives, two if they have the Donator E bonus.

    The Problems I have with the old system

    When Reviving was first introduced, it was guaranteed 100% chance, with 100% health regain no matter what. At this point I don't believe there was a faction bonus for reducing the E cost of revives, so every revive was 75E. At some point, the revive bonuses were introduced, and all was well, then when revives started becoming a factor in warring, they reduced the health gain from 100% to 20%, and that was the system most of us are familiar with. This system was in place for years and only started showing cracks when high end factions were hiring multiple entire reviver factions to help them fight wars. For lower end warfare, the system was always flawed but mostly functional.

    One major flaw of the old system was that it was simply made as is and basically never tweaked for such a long time even as Torn itself was changing and territory warfare was introduced, while ranked warring was removed (Still don't understand why it needed to be removed years before it was going to be replaced). Torn's updating and development moves far slower than most other companies, but Torn is also a niche game mostly kept alive as a passion project by Chedburn (To my knowledge) so it'd be a double edged sword to compare other games to Torn in this way. Reviving was a casualty of this lack of attention, as it was balanced for the point in time it was tweaked for, but had no curve so like most things in Torn, it broke a lot of stuff when used in extreme excess by the biggest factions of Torn.

    Conclusion

    Ultimately, no matter what system is used, there will always be flaws, but I believe that this system in particular would reduce the need for constant monitoring on the behalf of the developers to keep in a relatively balanced state. I am a rookie game developer of 1 year of experience so this isn't entirely out of my realm of experience, although I have never worked with a system like Torn's.

    Thank you for reading this post
    The major issue as a reviver is this makes revive factions and the whole tree functionally useless.

    An easier solution that seems helpful is if skill can be earned above 100 - still only generates 100% health - but can now increase chances of success - so that those who revive more can keep increasing success chances - this creates an opportunity that the % chance of success will drop to allow to make factions spend less - but allows revivers to keep working towards increased success/higher earnings with their revives
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    Posted on 22:10:03 - 06/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    AshleyT [1432316]

    TL;DR: Replace the revive chance system with a traditional cooldown system, but with a way that revive skill remains a factor.

    EditL By suggestion of a poster, I have moved my explaination of my reasons for wanting this change to the bottom of the post

    My Proposed Solution/Replacement

    The Solution I believe would be better than the old or new system still keeps revive skill relevant, which I believe is ultimately a good thing for reviving, there should be a curve, and a way to improve your abilities.

    The health given by reviver skill should remain untouched but given a new cap, 20% health should be the minimum health restored by a reviver, regardless of skill. 1% HP revives are useless in warfare, and no reviver should ever have an ability that feels useless. It would be useful for Overdoses and Crime failures but that's not the main source of hospitalisation in Torn, so it should not be the main target of any revive changes. Also as a side note, you have to be a brain surgeon to even unlock the ability to revive. I doubt someone who is good enough to be a brain surgeon is only reviving someone for 1% health.

    The Chance system should be scrapped entirely. It hurts the wrong side of revives. How I would replace it is this:

    • A new cooldown, 24 hours long to match the current recovery of revive chance. This Cooldown however shall be split into 6 hour segments

    • Revive Skill will dictate which segments you can revive into. In other words, if your revive skill is low, you could only revive someone if their cooldown is below the first 6 hour segment limit, while high skill revivers can revive until the end of the 24H cap

    • Reviver Experience gain will need to be reworked. It should now reward 3.5x the amount a 90% chance revive currently gives, although the exact number could be tweaked. The current system rewards more gain for higher risk revives so I see this as a requirement if this suggestion is to be implemented

    For how the Segments shall work:
    • First Segment, 6 hours. Revivers of skills from 0 to 24.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Second Segment, 12 hours. Revivers of skills from 25 to 49.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Third Segment, 18 hours. Revivers of skills from 50 to 74.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Fourth Segment, 24 hours. Revivers of skills from 75 to 100 can revive up to this limit
    This will ensure that reviver skill remains an important part of reviving, without needlessly punishing low skill revivers so they are always relevant and able to find people willing to accept their help so they can develop their skill.

    I did consider a system where the revives are guaranteed but the chance system applied to the amount of health recovered, but I do not think that random chance has a place in revives given their inherent high cost without the faction boosts.

    Possible Optional Change: Lowering reliance on factions for revives

    As it stands right now, factions are the only way to reduce the energy cost of a revive. This one fact is why revive factions even exist today. If there were alternate methods for obtaining the bonus, there would be less need for revive factions to exist and instead there would just be revive teams inside regular factions and faction families, more in like with what I assume is Chedburn's vision for more balanced warfare is.

    I believe that more methods for achieving this bonus should be created, BUT it should operate on Highest bonus takes priority, rather than having them add on to each other. Having these bonuses all add together would break the system again as people could combine them all to make overpowered revives with very low cost.

    The Bonuses for reducing the Energy Cost of Revives
    • Revive skill, for every 10 skill you gain you should have a reduction of 5e to your revive cost, resulting in only reaching 25e revives at 100 skill if not in a faction
    • Medical facilities on a PI for either the Reviver or the target of the Revive should reduce revive cost to 60e, 50e if a Doctor is hired as staff. This might also require that Medical facilities be made available for lower properties too, with some properties unable to hire the Doctor staff member so the bonus of health regeneration is not applied.
    • Merits (I don't agree with this one, but I felt it would be good to include as an idea) with a 5e reduction per merit.
    • Combining a revive with a medical item (This was more of a spitball idea), the reviver can choose to combine a medical item with the revive, with small first aid kits reducing cost to 65e, regular first aid kits reducing to 50e and morphine reducing to 40e, however I'm not sure how this should interact with medical cooldown so this is under-developed
    The Problems I have with the new system

    The new system is intended to provide a more fair warring experience, I personally think it has completely failed in this regard. Chedburn has pushed many of these changes lately to reduce outside interference in warring, but they all disproportionately affect smaller factions over the larger ones Chedburn is actually attempting to reel in. I believe part of the reason this is happening is because the comittee is almost, if not entirely, made up of High stat Veteran players since they are the most dedicated, and almost half of them are from the same HOF faction (To my knowledge, if this is incorrect, my apologies) making the comittee incredibly, if not intentionally, biased towards the big factions. The updates constantly having disproportionate effects seems to be proof of that. It is hard to really solve this since lower tier players don't often have the dedication to seek a comittee spot.

    The new system also hurts revivers more than it hurts faction fighters with this random chance system that was introduced. It doesn't limit revives that much, you just need more revivers and higher skill revivers to get more revives now since it's capped at 1% chance but it takes quite a lot of revives to get down that far. The intention to limit revives is clear, but the only people who are actually going to hit that low a chance are the lower statted and smaller factions because they need every effective fighter they have, while high tier factions can be fine even if 90% of their fighting force is combat ineffective from sheer stats and size alone.

    The random chance of the system is also a major flaw. It makes building revive skill as well as actually unlocking revive bonuses for factions incredibly difficult. This has caused the barrier for entry to reviving to be massively built up when the entry point should be the low point, and higher up should be more difficult. The base cost of a revive is 75E, that means that a beginner reviver has a cap of 90% chance to revive and can only revive once before being out of E for revives, two if they have the Donator E bonus.

    The Problems I have with the old system

    When Reviving was first introduced, it was guaranteed 100% chance, with 100% health regain no matter what. At this point I don't believe there was a faction bonus for reducing the E cost of revives, so every revive was 75E. At some point, the revive bonuses were introduced, and all was well, then when revives started becoming a factor in warring, they reduced the health gain from 100% to 20%, and that was the system most of us are familiar with. This system was in place for years and only started showing cracks when high end factions were hiring multiple entire reviver factions to help them fight wars. For lower end warfare, the system was always flawed but mostly functional.

    One major flaw of the old system was that it was simply made as is and basically never tweaked for such a long time even as Torn itself was changing and territory warfare was introduced, while ranked warring was removed (Still don't understand why it needed to be removed years before it was going to be replaced). Torn's updating and development moves far slower than most other companies, but Torn is also a niche game mostly kept alive as a passion project by Chedburn (To my knowledge) so it'd be a double edged sword to compare other games to Torn in this way. Reviving was a casualty of this lack of attention, as it was balanced for the point in time it was tweaked for, but had no curve so like most things in Torn, it broke a lot of stuff when used in extreme excess by the biggest factions of Torn.

    Conclusion

    Ultimately, no matter what system is used, there will always be flaws, but I believe that this system in particular would reduce the need for constant monitoring on the behalf of the developers to keep in a relatively balanced state. I am a rookie game developer of 1 year of experience so this isn't entirely out of my realm of experience, although I have never worked with a system like Torn's.

    Thank you for reading this post

    Drixxum [1602711]

    The major issue as a reviver is this makes revive factions and the whole tree functionally useless.

    An easier solution that seems helpful is if skill can be earned above 100 - still only generates 100% health - but can now increase chances of success - so that those who revive more can keep increasing success chances - this creates an opportunity that the % chance of success will drop to allow to make factions spend less - but allows revivers to keep working towards increased success/higher earnings with their revives
    It wouldn't make them useless. It'd remove their monopoly on the skill, while still making them a great place for less experienced revivers to build their skill or places to find a large amount of revivers if you're a warring faction. The amount of 100 skill revivers that aren't in a reviving faction would be low regardless so there'd always be a place for reviver factions and the medical revive boost factions get.

    However what you just said maintains the problem of the random chance. The random chance should be gone, completely, regardless of skill, because the cost of a failure is extremely high for revivers that aren't in a reviver faction, essentially making non boosted revives functionally pointless except in low stakes such as crime failures and doing the revive for a friend rather than during a competition or a war. The main problem I have with the random chance is that it unfairly makes early reviving far harder than it should be, basically chokeholding any new revivers past the point the system was introduced.
    Last edited by AshleyT on 22:13:52 - 06/10/21

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 22:24:04 - 09/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 17:17:10 - 20/10/21 (1 month ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 14:22:58 - 31/10/21 (30 days ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 22:09:24 - 07/11/21 (23 days ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 22:36:56 - 10/11/21 (20 days ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 01:04:22 - 17/11/21 (14 days ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 09:03:57 - 22/11/21 (8 days ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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    Posted on 15:02:36 - 30/11/21 (17 hours ago)
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    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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