Replacing Random Chance in Revives | Suggestions | TORN
Replacing Random Chance in Revives
  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Thread created on 16:49:54 - 02/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Last replied 15:02:36 - 30/11/21 (19 hours ago)
    TL;DR: Replace the revive chance system with a traditional cooldown system, but with a way that revive skill remains a factor.

    EditL By suggestion of a poster, I have moved my explaination of my reasons for wanting this change to the bottom of the post

    My Proposed Solution/Replacement

    The Solution I believe would be better than the old or new system still keeps revive skill relevant, which I believe is ultimately a good thing for reviving, there should be a curve, and a way to improve your abilities.

    The health given by reviver skill should remain untouched but given a new cap, 20% health should be the minimum health restored by a reviver, regardless of skill. 1% HP revives are useless in warfare, and no reviver should ever have an ability that feels useless. It would be useful for Overdoses and Crime failures but that's not the main source of hospitalisation in Torn, so it should not be the main target of any revive changes. Also as a side note, you have to be a brain surgeon to even unlock the ability to revive. I doubt someone who is good enough to be a brain surgeon is only reviving someone for 1% health.

    The Chance system should be scrapped entirely. It hurts the wrong side of revives. How I would replace it is this:

    • A new cooldown, 24 hours long to match the current recovery of revive chance. This Cooldown however shall be split into 6 hour segments

    • Revive Skill will dictate which segments you can revive into. In other words, if your revive skill is low, you could only revive someone if their cooldown is below the first 6 hour segment limit, while high skill revivers can revive until the end of the 24H cap

    • Reviver Experience gain will need to be reworked. It should now reward 3.5x the amount a 90% chance revive currently gives, although the exact number could be tweaked. The current system rewards more gain for higher risk revives so I see this as a requirement if this suggestion is to be implemented

    For how the Segments shall work:
    • First Segment, 6 hours. Revivers of skills from 0 to 24.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Second Segment, 12 hours. Revivers of skills from 25 to 49.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Third Segment, 18 hours. Revivers of skills from 50 to 74.99 can revive up to this limit
    • Fourth Segment, 24 hours. Revivers of skills from 75 to 100 can revive up to this limit
    This will ensure that reviver skill remains an important part of reviving, without needlessly punishing low skill revivers so they are always relevant and able to find people willing to accept their help so they can develop their skill.

    I did consider a system where the revives are guaranteed but the chance system applied to the amount of health recovered, but I do not think that random chance has a place in revives given their inherent high cost without the faction boosts.

    Possible Optional Change: Lowering reliance on factions for revives

    As it stands right now, factions are the only way to reduce the energy cost of a revive. This one fact is why revive factions even exist today. If there were alternate methods for obtaining the bonus, there would be less need for revive factions to exist and instead there would just be revive teams inside regular factions and faction families, more in like with what I assume is Chedburn's vision for more balanced warfare is.

    I believe that more methods for achieving this bonus should be created, BUT it should operate on Highest bonus takes priority, rather than having them add on to each other. Having these bonuses all add together would break the system again as people could combine them all to make overpowered revives with very low cost.

    The Bonuses for reducing the Energy Cost of Revives
    • Revive skill, for every 10 skill you gain you should have a reduction of 5e to your revive cost, resulting in only reaching 25e revives at 100 skill if not in a faction
    • Medical facilities on a PI for either the Reviver or the target of the Revive should reduce revive cost to 60e, 50e if a Doctor is hired as staff. This might also require that Medical facilities be made available for lower properties too, with some properties unable to hire the Doctor staff member so the bonus of health regeneration is not applied.
    • Merits (I don't agree with this one, but I felt it would be good to include as an idea) with a 5e reduction per merit.
    • Combining a revive with a medical item (This was more of a spitball idea), the reviver can choose to combine a medical item with the revive, with small first aid kits reducing cost to 65e, regular first aid kits reducing to 50e and morphine reducing to 40e, however I'm not sure how this should interact with medical cooldown so this is under-developed
    The Problems I have with the new system

    The new system is intended to provide a more fair warring experience, I personally think it has completely failed in this regard. Chedburn has pushed many of these changes lately to reduce outside interference in warring, but they all disproportionately affect smaller factions over the larger ones Chedburn is actually attempting to reel in. I believe part of the reason this is happening is because the comittee is almost, if not entirely, made up of High stat Veteran players since they are the most dedicated, and almost half of them are from the same HOF faction (To my knowledge, if this is incorrect, my apologies) making the comittee incredibly, if not intentionally, biased towards the big factions. The updates constantly having disproportionate effects seems to be proof of that. It is hard to really solve this since lower tier players don't often have the dedication to seek a comittee spot.

    The new system also hurts revivers more than it hurts faction fighters with this random chance system that was introduced. It doesn't limit revives that much, you just need more revivers and higher skill revivers to get more revives now since it's capped at 1% chance but it takes quite a lot of revives to get down that far. The intention to limit revives is clear, but the only people who are actually going to hit that low a chance are the lower statted and smaller factions because they need every effective fighter they have, while high tier factions can be fine even if 90% of their fighting force is combat ineffective from sheer stats and size alone.

    The random chance of the system is also a major flaw. It makes building revive skill as well as actually unlocking revive bonuses for factions incredibly difficult. This has caused the barrier for entry to reviving to be massively built up when the entry point should be the low point, and higher up should be more difficult. The base cost of a revive is 75E, that means that a beginner reviver has a cap of 90% chance to revive and can only revive once before being out of E for revives, two if they have the Donator E bonus.

    The Problems I have with the old system

    When Reviving was first introduced, it was guaranteed 100% chance, with 100% health regain no matter what. At this point I don't believe there was a faction bonus for reducing the E cost of revives, so every revive was 75E. At some point, the revive bonuses were introduced, and all was well, then when revives started becoming a factor in warring, they reduced the health gain from 100% to 20%, and that was the system most of us are familiar with. This system was in place for years and only started showing cracks when high end factions were hiring multiple entire reviver factions to help them fight wars. For lower end warfare, the system was always flawed but mostly functional.

    One major flaw of the old system was that it was simply made as is and basically never tweaked for such a long time even as Torn itself was changing and territory warfare was introduced, while ranked warring was removed (Still don't understand why it needed to be removed years before it was going to be replaced). Torn's updating and development moves far slower than most other companies, but Torn is also a niche game mostly kept alive as a passion project by Chedburn (To my knowledge) so it'd be a double edged sword to compare other games to Torn in this way. Reviving was a casualty of this lack of attention, as it was balanced for the point in time it was tweaked for, but had no curve so like most things in Torn, it broke a lot of stuff when used in extreme excess by the biggest factions of Torn.

    Conclusion

    Ultimately, no matter what system is used, there will always be flaws, but I believe that this system in particular would reduce the need for constant monitoring on the behalf of the developers to keep in a relatively balanced state. I am a rookie game developer of 1 year of experience so this isn't entirely out of my realm of experience, although I have never worked with a system like Torn's.

    Thank you for reading this post
    Last edited by AshleyT on 16:55:49 - 10/06/21

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • JessyWessy [2615591]JessyWessy [2615591]
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    Posted on 17:13:06 - 02/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Very well written and considered
  • MED! Jairyll [2167612]Jairyll [2167612]
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    Posted on 09:28:47 - 03/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    +R

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 13:09:50 - 06/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Bumping this up since I've seen the revert post get a lot of attention

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 22:29:23 - 09/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Bump

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 13:27:29 - 11/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Bump

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 20:51:29 - 12/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Another bump. All positive but general lack of attention.

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AVAL SirEdge [2609907]SirEdge [2609907]
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    Posted on 21:35:34 - 12/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    I would like to see revive factions repurposed and have revive teams within factions, as you describe.  That makes it so that factions have to balance internally between having more warriors and having the ability to use the same warriors more.  It also allows lower stat players to make a meaningful, perhaps crucial, contribution by trading their energy to put a high-stat faction mate back in play.

    To promote this, I would eliminate the faction revival bonus (after adequate warning so people aren't blindsided by it) and make the bonus work like this- revives cost 25e inside your faction and 75e outside your faction. Period. No other boosts.

    This gets to the heart of the matter- people should be making strategic tradeoffs in how they use revives and this would make it so that factions either add enough revivers to keep their high stat players on the field or they can skip revives entirely and just fill up completely with warriors and see how they do instead of having the advantage of both.

    As an aside to the OP, I think you lose a lot of people with the first couple paragraphs, as Vladar proved right out of the gates that the committee is made up of many different factions, not nearly half out of one. I don't think the thrust of your argument (that small faction/alternate playstyle/ low battle stat players are under represented) is incorrect, but I think that moving that stuff to the bottom and removing the demonstrably inaccurate piece could probably help to get your suggestion seen for the good in it instead of being passed over.
    Last edited by SirEdge on 21:36:42 - 12/04/21

    88325a84-98c2-374d-2609907.gif

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 22:36:43 - 12/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    SirEdge [2609907]

    I would like to see revive factions repurposed and have revive teams within factions, as you describe. That makes it so that factions have to balance internally between having more warriors and having the ability to use the same warriors more. It also allows lower stat players to make a meaningful, perhaps crucial, contribution by trading their energy to put a high-stat faction mate back in play.

    To promote this, I would eliminate the faction revival bonus (after adequate warning so people aren't blindsided by it) and make the bonus work like this- revives cost 25e inside your faction and 75e outside your faction. Period. No other boosts.

    This gets to the heart of the matter- people should be making strategic tradeoffs in how they use revives and this would make it so that factions either add enough revivers to keep their high stat players on the field or they can skip revives entirely and just fill up completely with warriors and see how they do instead of having the advantage of both.

    As an aside to the OP, I think you lose a lot of people with the first couple paragraphs, as Vladar proved right out of the gates that the committee is made up of many different factions, not nearly half out of one. I don't think the thrust of your argument (that small faction/alternate playstyle/ low battle stat players are under represented) is incorrect, but I think that moving that stuff to the bottom and removing the demonstrably inaccurate piece could probably help to get your suggestion seen for the good in it instead of being passed over.
    The problem I'd have with this is that it'd completely disregard reviving for money, or to help out friends (Faction related or personal) and entirely promote reviving for war only. While it wouldn't remove the ability to use it for those purposes, no one who is mindful of their energy usage is ever going to do that because of it's massive inefficiency.

    To my knowledge almost half the comittee is made up of a single, HOF high tier faction. I do not see anything wrong with this inherently if they are the people that meet the criteria for the comittee but it does lead to many problems. However, since I don't know every single comittee member, I can only go off information I have found elsewhere in Torn.

    I could change the order of the post, although I intended to explain myself before offering the change.

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AVAL SirEdge [2609907]SirEdge [2609907]
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    Posted on 22:49:26 - 12/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    SirEdge [2609907]

    I would like to see revive factions repurposed and have revive teams within factions, as you describe. That makes it so that factions have to balance internally between having more warriors and having the ability to use the same warriors more. It also allows lower stat players to make a meaningful, perhaps crucial, contribution by trading their energy to put a high-stat faction mate back in play.

    To promote this, I would eliminate the faction revival bonus (after adequate warning so people aren't blindsided by it) and make the bonus work like this- revives cost 25e inside your faction and 75e outside your faction. Period. No other boosts.

    This gets to the heart of the matter- people should be making strategic tradeoffs in how they use revives and this would make it so that factions either add enough revivers to keep their high stat players on the field or they can skip revives entirely and just fill up completely with warriors and see how they do instead of having the advantage of both.

    As an aside to the OP, I think you lose a lot of people with the first couple paragraphs, as Vladar proved right out of the gates that the committee is made up of many different factions, not nearly half out of one. I don't think the thrust of your argument (that small faction/alternate playstyle/ low battle stat players are under represented) is incorrect, but I think that moving that stuff to the bottom and removing the demonstrably inaccurate piece could probably help to get your suggestion seen for the good in it instead of being passed over.

    AshleyT [1432316]

    The problem I'd have with this is that it'd completely disregard reviving for money, or to help out friends (Faction related or personal) and entirely promote reviving for war only. While it wouldn't remove the ability to use it for those purposes, no one who is mindful of their energy usage is ever going to do that because of it's massive inefficiency.

    To my knowledge almost half the comittee is made up of a single, HOF high tier faction. I do not see anything wrong with this inherently if they are the people that meet the criteria for the comittee but it does lead to many problems. However, since I don't know every single comittee member, I can only go off information I have found elsewhere in Torn.

    I could change the order of the post, although I intended to explain myself before offering the change.
    Well, you may have noticed that Ched had made statements that "casual" revivers are an intended casualty of these changes.  I believe it is his intention to take money out of reviving.  

    I don't see that as inherently a problem, as reviving for pay was just a symptom of the general problem- the money making primary active mechanism in torn didn't scale well as players got stronger- strong players take most of the decent mugs available, so lowbies have to fly plushies or drugs instead of being able to actually use their battlestats to make a living. If players were in different servers, areas, or otherwise stratified, then it would be much more possible to earn an active living by being clever or having higher battlestats than the people around you, but in the current arrangement, it takes being tough and smart because there are so many tough smart players to compete against.

    But while people don't have a good method of making an active living, they fly flowers and provide revives. The problem here is that Ched doesn't resolve the income problem first. Solve that and people will hardly miss paid revives.

    88325a84-98c2-374d-2609907.gif

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 17:51:24 - 13/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    SirEdge [2609907]

    Well, you may have noticed that Ched had made statements that "casual" revivers are an intended casualty of these changes. I believe it is his intention to take money out of reviving.

    I don't see that as inherently a problem, as reviving for pay was just a symptom of the general problem- the money making primary active mechanism in torn didn't scale well as players got stronger- strong players take most of the decent mugs available, so lowbies have to fly plushies or drugs instead of being able to actually use their battlestats to make a living. If players were in different servers, areas, or otherwise stratified, then it would be much more possible to earn an active living by being clever or having higher battlestats than the people around you, but in the current arrangement, it takes being tough and smart because there are so many tough smart players to compete against.

    But while people don't have a good method of making an active living, they fly flowers and provide revives. The problem here is that Ched doesn't resolve the income problem first. Solve that and people will hardly miss paid revives.
    But if someone has a skill, surely they should be paid for it? "Casual" revivers are revivers who don't really put much effort into reviving, hence revive skill affecting the health of revives. It should not mean taking the money out of the skill, in fact I was hoping the opposite, when I first became a proper reviver I intended to make it my skill that I made money from, but I only managed to get there just as things were getting absolutely swamped with supply and no demand.

    Reviving was never meant to be a major mechanic in Torn Warring, it became so as a consequence of Factions holding all the bonuses for revives which in itself was poor game balance. A secondary cause is how punishing failing a crime is, even after the recent, much needed rebalance of it, so most players avoid danger like the plague.

    Battle Stats should not be the only way to make money in Torn. It is a crime game, not a war game. Back room healthcare, drug dealing and other parts of crime should be taken care of as much as gang warfare.

    You are right though, Torn's economy scales very poorly. This has been a problem since I joined several years ago and has only gotten worse since Torn's inflation has gotten out of control while income for actual criminal activity has never actually been tweaked, so the players made their own amongst themselves, which led to mugging becoming overly powerful against anyone without a vault, which led to the community finding workarounds such as self hosping, ghost trades and all that other stuff we take as normal today.

    It is interesting to see what other people think though

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 15:03:00 - 15/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Bump

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 16:56:33 - 16/04/21 (7 months ago)
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  • AI Verx [2635352]Verx [2635352]
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    Posted on 18:55:45 - 16/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    BUMp
    Last edited by Verx on 18:56:07 - 16/04/21

    Revives: Xanax or 1m per revive, can do contracts for 1m or 500k per revive, no pay needed for failed revives. 

  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 14:55:24 - 19/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Posted on 22:03:54 - 21/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Posted on 19:16:23 - 25/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Posted on 20:33:47 - 29/04/21 (7 months ago)
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    Posted on 19:13:21 - 05/05/21 (6 months ago)
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  • AI AshleyT [1432316]AshleyT [1432316]
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    Posted on 17:34:44 - 06/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Another bump

    Please support my suggestion to refine the revive system here

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