Steppenwulf [2960257]

Just to clarify to all the people the Ancap logo triggered, I'm not an Anarcho-Capitalist.  I do happen to agree that minorities do not deserve special rights, and that the rights of all are best preserved in the rights of the individual.

I'll also briefly address something I've seen around lately, not sure if it was this threat topic or in another thread.

 

Rights exist as a matter of metaphysics.  What governments do is either acknowledge and protect those rights, or ignore and abuse those rights.  Governments don't make or define rights.

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Nekorah [1980720]

Regardless of the metaphysics involving rights, without a state to enforce it, it may as well not exist at all.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

I disagree with the philosophy of disregarding the rights of people whose governments abuse them.  It's because we believe people have those rights without regard for the government's position or actions, that we fight to protect the rights of the oppressed.

Nekorah [1980720]

Who brought up any sort of philosophy like that?

Steppenwulf [2960257]

"without a state to enforce it, it may as well not exist at all"

 

It's just the way this sounds to me.

 

Maybe it's not how you meant it.

 

But the original talking point is something like "There is no such thing as rights where the government doesn't recognize them / defend them."  Which basically makes the government the arbiter of rights, which some people actually believe, mind you.  So when I hear that, I try to bring it back to people's minds that in fact people have rights even if the government abuses them.  It's important we believe in people's inherent rights as co-equals in this life.

Nekorah [1980720]

I'm talking political realism here. Without a gov, your rights effectively don't exist. This is why we need a government, to enforce rights among other things.

 

That's why I said 'regardless of the metaphysics involving rights'.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Yeah, I agree, without a government, your rights will not be protected.

Frankly, even in a total anarchy, there's going to be groups that immediately form to protect each other's rights.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Yeah, I agree, without a government, your rights will not be protected.

Frankly, even in a total anarchy, there's going to be groups that immediately form to protect each other's rights.

Lenin [2199004]

They would pale in comparison to the groups that form to protect their own interpretation of their own rights, and none else.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Yeah, I agree, without a government, your rights will not be protected.

Frankly, even in a total anarchy, there's going to be groups that immediately form to protect each other's rights.

Lenin [2199004]

They would pale in comparison to the groups that form to protect their own interpretation of their own rights, and none else.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Right, because people disagree on what rights are, therefore rights don't exist?

Bah.  People disagree on whether the planet is flat or round.  That doesn't mean there is no shape of the earth.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Right, because people disagree on what rights are, therefore rights don't exist?

Bah.  People disagree on whether the planet is flat or round.  That doesn't mean there is no shape of the earth.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Right, because people disagree on what rights are, therefore rights don't exist?

Bah.  People disagree on whether the planet is flat or round.  That doesn't mean there is no shape of the earth.

Lenin [2199004]

Rights don't "exist" in the same way that laws in general don't "exist" - they are abstractions codified, but without violence to back them up they are little more than words.

 

As such, there's no divine or ultimate set of rights that defy human interpretation.

 

And even further, those not in the in-group rarely are treated like they are unless there's extreme confidence in superior violence.

 

So it would be different factions attempting to enforce different sets of "rights", but few if any that exist to defend the rights of those not in their faction.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

So might makes right.

Thus there is never injustice in the world, for those with the might make the right, and it is their right that they enact.

 

This is what nihilistic legal positivism amounts to.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

So might makes right.

Thus there is never injustice in the world, for those with the might make the right, and it is their right that they enact.

 

This is what nihilistic legal positivism amounts to.

Lenin [2199004]

That's just how it is fam. The final arbiter of rights, on this earthly plane, are human beings.

 

You just have to hope the human beings in charge of enacting violence for your in-group are willing to humour the "rights" they tolerated being defined.

 

There are many common desired "rights" that would almost certainly end up in any would-be faction's charter, so they might as well be "inalienable", but that's about it. Whether those rights are actually followed, or the betrayal of those rights punished, is again entirely up to those who have the monopoly on violence, and absolutely nothing other than the unlikely threat of counterviolence stands in the way of those decisions.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Rights that don't exist can't be violated.  They're a principle that exist separate of our understand or belief of them.  If they only exist where they are respected or enforced, they do not exist at all, and there is no right to fight for.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

Rights that don't exist can't be violated.  They're a principle that exist separate of our understand or belief of them.  If they only exist where they are respected or enforced, they do not exist at all, and there is no right to fight for.

Lenin [2199004]

They don't exist, yes.

 

But there is absolutely reason to fight for common understandings, and structure, and thus "rights".

 

But it's a mistake to assume any sort of divinity or infallibility - they are manmade concepts that are ensured and denied by men at will.

 

Doesn't mean you should resign yourself to slavery.

Steppenwulf [2960257]

How many people have to agree on a right before it becomes a right?