WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

care to tell me why burger flippers and stock clerks in Denmark earn 25 an hour and business still profits?


here's a hint, they produce WAY MORE VALUE THAN YOU THINK

Show post

SaintLuke [2220265]

No, a monkey can do the job...in America we have a tendency to invent automation for a simple job when folks want to be paid a stupid amount of money to do it. So if idiots like yourself want to try and push this outrageous pay for a stupid simple job that is not really needed....they will make the job automated. Then there will be no pay for the younger folks trying to get job experience.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

what? dafuq do you mean people below 18 don't get paid that wage lol what.

SaintLuke [2220265]

you raise min. wage to something stupid, the monkey jobs go away. The monkey jobs go away, younger folks wont get the work experience they need. Not sure how i can make it any simpler for you.


Was talking to a lady the other day and she worded the way i feel better then i can. Folks should get paid a FAIR wage for what they do not EQUAL wage.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

except that happened in western Europe and jobs didn't go away.

stores are 24/7 looking for young employees.

and what? equal wage? stock clerks don't get paid 50 an hour like the average software job.

your not living in reality

SaintLuke [2220265]

Just incase you didn't know, Western Europe and America...too completely different places....things that work there will not work here and vise versa... So stop trying to compare yall's way to our way. America is already in the process of automating many jobs, and has automated some jobs already.

fair wage, in my opinion means you get fair pay for the skills you are selling. If you are looking to be a cart pusher, burger flipper, cashier you are not offering any actual skill. So your pay should reflect that. Now say you are a welder, cowboy, doctor etc etc your pay should be dramatically higher.

Now if the min. wage goes up to $20+/H many of the skilled workers will make just as much as the unskilled workers. Because a company is not going to give everybody who was already making $20+/H a raise.

Just so you know, $20/H is damn good money in some states here in America. Living expense changes from state to state. There are many factors I'm assuming you don't know about... Example, here in West Texas i can afford a decent home with some land while still being comfortable, yet if i moved to California with my pay being the same...i could barely survive.


cost of living by states.

Capgros [2088627]

Yeah I think so, a lot of these companies don't have to research new things to make a profit, they will squeeze as much as possible out of the old ways before investing in something that might not even be a success. that's why government funded research in all sectors is by far the biggest help in moving forward.

Lifecheese [2486313]

Right, but the people who benefit under the corrupt system now are not going to suddenly accept defeat and go home. If the same government that they loot and manipulate now suddenly has additional trillions up for grabs, they're going to grab it just as they always have. So government-funded solution is only practical once we have created a system that lacks the waste and injustice created by our massive glut of foolish laws. If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive, not less. We have to fix the endemic problems before a public option is even viable.

Capgros [2088627]

"If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive"

Worldwide statistics disagree, for instance, here in Spain we are much poorer, but healthcare is much more available and we pay less per person. Maybe some ultra rich person has to go to the US for a special ultra new kind of treatment, but the average Joe is far better off here in terms of healthcare.

for the rest, without the government you wouldn't be able to use your computer or the internet because it simply wouldn't exist, this was the result of government funded research that broaden our understanding of how thing work in general, the private sector just took something that already existed and turned it into a consumer product, but nothing fundamental new was made by this sector.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Not true.

The computer was actually invented in private capacity and then the computer technology was revolutionised by IBM, who was a completely private company at the time. The reason they did it? Capitalism.

Capgros [2088627]

We would have never come to the invention of the computer, wasn't it for government funded research was my point, and your statement is also not correct:

"Charles Babbage, an English polymath, is often thought of as “the man who invented computers”. From 1822 until his death in 1871, he designed 3 computers, but never actually constructed any of them, due to lack of funding."

"In 1938 the United States Navy invented the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC), possibly the world’s first electromechanical computer. It was designed to track a target, and aim & fire a torpedo from a submarine. At the time the Japanese also had an automated, torpedo firing computer on their submarines. However, it was not capable of tracking a target!"

and "capitalism" is no reason for any invention lol, the free market is great for the invention of consumer products made with the knowledge of basic understanding of concepts, funded by government research, that is my point

Capgros [2088627]

Yeah I think so, a lot of these companies don't have to research new things to make a profit, they will squeeze as much as possible out of the old ways before investing in something that might not even be a success. that's why government funded research in all sectors is by far the biggest help in moving forward.

Show post

Lifecheese [2486313]

Right, but the people who benefit under the corrupt system now are not going to suddenly accept defeat and go home. If the same government that they loot and manipulate now suddenly has additional trillions up for grabs, they're going to grab it just as they always have. So government-funded solution is only practical once we have created a system that lacks the waste and injustice created by our massive glut of foolish laws. If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive, not less. We have to fix the endemic problems before a public option is even viable.

Capgros [2088627]

"If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive"

Worldwide statistics disagree, for instance, here in Spain we are much poorer, but healthcare is much more available and we pay less per person. Maybe some ultra rich person has to go to the US for a special ultra new kind of treatment, but the average Joe is far better off here in terms of healthcare.

for the rest, without the government you wouldn't be able to use your computer or the internet because it simply wouldn't exist, this was the result of government funded research that broaden our understanding of how thing work in general, the private sector just took something that already existed and turned it into a consumer product, but nothing fundamental new was made by this sector.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Not true.

The computer was actually invented in private capacity and then the computer technology was revolutionised by IBM, who was a completely private company at the time. The reason they did it? Capitalism.

Capgros [2088627]

We would have never come to the invention of the computer, wasn't it for government funded research was my point, and your statement is also not correct:

"Charles Babbage, an English polymath, is often thought of as “the man who invented computers”. From 1822 until his death in 1871, he designed 3 computers, but never actually constructed any of them, due to lack of funding."

"In 1938 the United States Navy invented the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC), possibly the world’s first electromechanical computer. It was designed to track a target, and aim & fire a torpedo from a submarine. At the time the Japanese also had an automated, torpedo firing computer on their submarines. However, it was not capable of tracking a target!"

and "capitalism" is no reason for any invention lol, the free market is great for the invention of consumer products made with the knowledge of basic understanding of concepts, funded by government research, that is my point

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I disagree with you. IBM was founded in 1911 already and they invented, manufactured and developed almost everything regarding computers privately.

Same goes for the invention and development of automobiles. Go read the biography of Henry Ford. Electronic vehicles also completely privately owned.

Most of telecommunication technology in the past y20 years were also completely privately invented. SamSung and Apple are examples. The reason for us having smartphones today that are basically computers are because of capitalism and competition within for-profit companies.

Most of your engineers who invent stuff today, do so on privately funded projects and that includes mechanical, electrical and civil engineering.

SaintLuke [2220265]

No, a monkey can do the job...in America we have a tendency to invent automation for a simple job when folks want to be paid a stupid amount of money to do it. So if idiots like yourself want to try and push this outrageous pay for a stupid simple job that is not really needed....they will make the job automated. Then there will be no pay for the younger folks trying to get job experience.

Show post

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

what? dafuq do you mean people below 18 don't get paid that wage lol what.

SaintLuke [2220265]

you raise min. wage to something stupid, the monkey jobs go away. The monkey jobs go away, younger folks wont get the work experience they need. Not sure how i can make it any simpler for you.


Was talking to a lady the other day and she worded the way i feel better then i can. Folks should get paid a FAIR wage for what they do not EQUAL wage.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

except that happened in western Europe and jobs didn't go away.

stores are 24/7 looking for young employees.

and what? equal wage? stock clerks don't get paid 50 an hour like the average software job.

your not living in reality

SaintLuke [2220265]

Just incase you didn't know, Western Europe and America...too completely different places....things that work there will not work here and vise versa... So stop trying to compare yall's way to our way. America is already in the process of automating many jobs, and has automated some jobs already.

fair wage, in my opinion means you get fair pay for the skills you are selling. If you are looking to be a cart pusher, burger flipper, cashier you are not offering any actual skill. So your pay should reflect that. Now say you are a welder, cowboy, doctor etc etc your pay should be dramatically higher.

Now if the min. wage goes up to $20+/H many of the skilled workers will make just as much as the unskilled workers. Because a company is not going to give everybody who was already making $20+/H a raise.

Just so you know, $20/H is damn good money in some states here in America. Living expense changes from state to state. There are many factors I'm assuming you don't know about... Example, here in West Texas i can afford a decent home with some land while still being comfortable, yet if i moved to California with my pay being the same...i could barely survive.


cost of living by states.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

the US has more wealth and income on average than Western Europe.

"things that work there will not work here and vise versa"

ok, prove it. prove your claim. you haven't submitted any argument or evidence. opinions arent valid without a solid foundation.

Lifecheese [2486313]

Right, but the people who benefit under the corrupt system now are not going to suddenly accept defeat and go home. If the same government that they loot and manipulate now suddenly has additional trillions up for grabs, they're going to grab it just as they always have. So government-funded solution is only practical once we have created a system that lacks the waste and injustice created by our massive glut of foolish laws. If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive, not less. We have to fix the endemic problems before a public option is even viable.

Show post

Capgros [2088627]

"If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive"

Worldwide statistics disagree, for instance, here in Spain we are much poorer, but healthcare is much more available and we pay less per person. Maybe some ultra rich person has to go to the US for a special ultra new kind of treatment, but the average Joe is far better off here in terms of healthcare.

for the rest, without the government you wouldn't be able to use your computer or the internet because it simply wouldn't exist, this was the result of government funded research that broaden our understanding of how thing work in general, the private sector just took something that already existed and turned it into a consumer product, but nothing fundamental new was made by this sector.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Not true.

The computer was actually invented in private capacity and then the computer technology was revolutionised by IBM, who was a completely private company at the time. The reason they did it? Capitalism.

Capgros [2088627]

We would have never come to the invention of the computer, wasn't it for government funded research was my point, and your statement is also not correct:

"Charles Babbage, an English polymath, is often thought of as “the man who invented computers”. From 1822 until his death in 1871, he designed 3 computers, but never actually constructed any of them, due to lack of funding."

"In 1938 the United States Navy invented the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC), possibly the world’s first electromechanical computer. It was designed to track a target, and aim & fire a torpedo from a submarine. At the time the Japanese also had an automated, torpedo firing computer on their submarines. However, it was not capable of tracking a target!"

and "capitalism" is no reason for any invention lol, the free market is great for the invention of consumer products made with the knowledge of basic understanding of concepts, funded by government research, that is my point

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I disagree with you. IBM was founded in 1911 already and they invented, manufactured and developed almost everything regarding computers privately.

Same goes for the invention and development of automobiles. Go read the biography of Henry Ford. Electronic vehicles also completely privately owned.

Most of telecommunication technology in the past y20 years were also completely privately invented. SamSung and Apple are examples. The reason for us having smartphones today that are basically computers are because of capitalism and competition within for-profit companies.

Most of your engineers who invent stuff today, do so on privately funded projects and that includes mechanical, electrical and civil engineering.

Capgros [2088627]

That's all not true, the automobile might be invented by a private company (I doubt it, probably the army) but the research that lead to for instance the combustion motor is surely because of government funded research, since that kind of research takes ages, and is not sure if it actually leads to something and to what it is, so no private company would invest in it, unless they get money from the government (like Tesla or lots of other companies that get large amounts of government money), so although private companies, their research is still government funded.

Telecom technology was mostly invented for the army, by government funding, whether the money was given to a private company and than invented doesn't matter, it's still government funded

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929310-200-state-of-innovation-busting-the-private-sector-myth/


"Apple is a perfect example. In its early stages the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the internet, GPS, touchscreen displays and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) bankrolled the internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the US is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state."

"The examples don’t just come from the military arena, either. The US National Institutes of Health spends around $30 billion every year on pharmaceutical and biotechnology research and is responsible for 75 per cent of the most innovative new drugs annually. Even the algorithm behind Google benefited from US National Science Foundation (NSF) funding."

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

what? dafuq do you mean people below 18 don't get paid that wage lol what.

Show post

SaintLuke [2220265]

you raise min. wage to something stupid, the monkey jobs go away. The monkey jobs go away, younger folks wont get the work experience they need. Not sure how i can make it any simpler for you.


Was talking to a lady the other day and she worded the way i feel better then i can. Folks should get paid a FAIR wage for what they do not EQUAL wage.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

except that happened in western Europe and jobs didn't go away.

stores are 24/7 looking for young employees.

and what? equal wage? stock clerks don't get paid 50 an hour like the average software job.

your not living in reality

SaintLuke [2220265]

Just incase you didn't know, Western Europe and America...too completely different places....things that work there will not work here and vise versa... So stop trying to compare yall's way to our way. America is already in the process of automating many jobs, and has automated some jobs already.

fair wage, in my opinion means you get fair pay for the skills you are selling. If you are looking to be a cart pusher, burger flipper, cashier you are not offering any actual skill. So your pay should reflect that. Now say you are a welder, cowboy, doctor etc etc your pay should be dramatically higher.

Now if the min. wage goes up to $20+/H many of the skilled workers will make just as much as the unskilled workers. Because a company is not going to give everybody who was already making $20+/H a raise.

Just so you know, $20/H is damn good money in some states here in America. Living expense changes from state to state. There are many factors I'm assuming you don't know about... Example, here in West Texas i can afford a decent home with some land while still being comfortable, yet if i moved to California with my pay being the same...i could barely survive.


cost of living by states.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

the US has more wealth and income on average than Western Europe.

"things that work there will not work here and vise versa"

ok, prove it. prove your claim. you haven't submitted any argument or evidence. opinions arent valid without a solid foundation.

SaintLuke [2220265]

here is a quick link that shows the progress of automation in fast food.

cool huh

as for things that work for yall not working for us...hell you can start with gun laws and continue onto how we drive, measure and healthcare as well... The facts are there, and I could honestly care less about trying to "prove" how things there and here are different and your one size fits all solutions are BS.

Capgros [2088627]

"If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive"

Worldwide statistics disagree, for instance, here in Spain we are much poorer, but healthcare is much more available and we pay less per person. Maybe some ultra rich person has to go to the US for a special ultra new kind of treatment, but the average Joe is far better off here in terms of healthcare.

for the rest, without the government you wouldn't be able to use your computer or the internet because it simply wouldn't exist, this was the result of government funded research that broaden our understanding of how thing work in general, the private sector just took something that already existed and turned it into a consumer product, but nothing fundamental new was made by this sector.

Show post

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Not true.

The computer was actually invented in private capacity and then the computer technology was revolutionised by IBM, who was a completely private company at the time. The reason they did it? Capitalism.

Capgros [2088627]

We would have never come to the invention of the computer, wasn't it for government funded research was my point, and your statement is also not correct:

"Charles Babbage, an English polymath, is often thought of as “the man who invented computers”. From 1822 until his death in 1871, he designed 3 computers, but never actually constructed any of them, due to lack of funding."

"In 1938 the United States Navy invented the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC), possibly the world’s first electromechanical computer. It was designed to track a target, and aim & fire a torpedo from a submarine. At the time the Japanese also had an automated, torpedo firing computer on their submarines. However, it was not capable of tracking a target!"

and "capitalism" is no reason for any invention lol, the free market is great for the invention of consumer products made with the knowledge of basic understanding of concepts, funded by government research, that is my point

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I disagree with you. IBM was founded in 1911 already and they invented, manufactured and developed almost everything regarding computers privately.

Same goes for the invention and development of automobiles. Go read the biography of Henry Ford. Electronic vehicles also completely privately owned.

Most of telecommunication technology in the past y20 years were also completely privately invented. SamSung and Apple are examples. The reason for us having smartphones today that are basically computers are because of capitalism and competition within for-profit companies.

Most of your engineers who invent stuff today, do so on privately funded projects and that includes mechanical, electrical and civil engineering.

Capgros [2088627]

That's all not true, the automobile might be invented by a private company (I doubt it, probably the army) but the research that lead to for instance the combustion motor is surely because of government funded research, since that kind of research takes ages, and is not sure if it actually leads to something and to what it is, so no private company would invest in it, unless they get money from the government (like Tesla or lots of other companies that get large amounts of government money), so although private companies, their research is still government funded.

Telecom technology was mostly invented for the army, by government funding, whether the money was given to a private company and than invented doesn't matter, it's still government funded

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929310-200-state-of-innovation-busting-the-private-sector-myth/


"Apple is a perfect example. In its early stages the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the internet, GPS, touchscreen displays and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) bankrolled the internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the US is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state."

"The examples don’t just come from the military arena, either. The US National Institutes of Health spends around $30 billion every year on pharmaceutical and biotechnology research and is responsible for 75 per cent of the most innovative new drugs annually. Even the algorithm behind Google benefited from US National Science Foundation (NSF) funding."

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Ok point taken, although I still think government would not have any money to fund had it not been for the very large capitalist private sector paying taxes.

Thats why most of your inventions come from capitalist countries' private sectors and not the poor socialists.

So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism.

Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period.

Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding.

Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Not true.

The computer was actually invented in private capacity and then the computer technology was revolutionised by IBM, who was a completely private company at the time. The reason they did it? Capitalism.

Show post

Capgros [2088627]

We would have never come to the invention of the computer, wasn't it for government funded research was my point, and your statement is also not correct:

"Charles Babbage, an English polymath, is often thought of as “the man who invented computers”. From 1822 until his death in 1871, he designed 3 computers, but never actually constructed any of them, due to lack of funding."

"In 1938 the United States Navy invented the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC), possibly the world’s first electromechanical computer. It was designed to track a target, and aim & fire a torpedo from a submarine. At the time the Japanese also had an automated, torpedo firing computer on their submarines. However, it was not capable of tracking a target!"

and "capitalism" is no reason for any invention lol, the free market is great for the invention of consumer products made with the knowledge of basic understanding of concepts, funded by government research, that is my point

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I disagree with you. IBM was founded in 1911 already and they invented, manufactured and developed almost everything regarding computers privately.

Same goes for the invention and development of automobiles. Go read the biography of Henry Ford. Electronic vehicles also completely privately owned.

Most of telecommunication technology in the past y20 years were also completely privately invented. SamSung and Apple are examples. The reason for us having smartphones today that are basically computers are because of capitalism and competition within for-profit companies.

Most of your engineers who invent stuff today, do so on privately funded projects and that includes mechanical, electrical and civil engineering.

Capgros [2088627]

That's all not true, the automobile might be invented by a private company (I doubt it, probably the army) but the research that lead to for instance the combustion motor is surely because of government funded research, since that kind of research takes ages, and is not sure if it actually leads to something and to what it is, so no private company would invest in it, unless they get money from the government (like Tesla or lots of other companies that get large amounts of government money), so although private companies, their research is still government funded.

Telecom technology was mostly invented for the army, by government funding, whether the money was given to a private company and than invented doesn't matter, it's still government funded

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929310-200-state-of-innovation-busting-the-private-sector-myth/


"Apple is a perfect example. In its early stages the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the internet, GPS, touchscreen displays and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) bankrolled the internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the US is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state."

"The examples don’t just come from the military arena, either. The US National Institutes of Health spends around $30 billion every year on pharmaceutical and biotechnology research and is responsible for 75 per cent of the most innovative new drugs annually. Even the algorithm behind Google benefited from US National Science Foundation (NSF) funding."

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Ok point taken, although I still think government would not have any money to fund had it not been for the very large capitalist private sector paying taxes.

Thats why most of your inventions come from capitalist countries' private sectors and not the poor socialists.

So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism.

Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period.

Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding.

Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place.

Capgros [2088627]

Ok let's break this down:

"So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism."

Precisely not no, but there are many other ways, millions of years of inventions came before capitalism, sometimes faster,. sometimes slower

"Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period."


Only because they have the facilities and the government pays them to do so, it's because the capitalist system is made to function liken this, you cannot make a system where the mechanics are like this and than claim that the private sector invents more, in the USSR they could have claimed the same thing but than say it is the government


"Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding. "

the Tesla motor was invented by......Nicola Tesla, more than 100 years ago, actually To this day, Tesla’s patented AC motor system is still used in the majority of electric motors.

And rockets also existed before Musk was even born and come from the USSR, so nothing new there also

"Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place."

That is just an opinion, not a fact, for instance , the USSR in it's best times invented a lot of things also with a completely different system, as long as there are humans, inventions will be done, that's something human, not capitalist.

SaintLuke [2220265]

you raise min. wage to something stupid, the monkey jobs go away. The monkey jobs go away, younger folks wont get the work experience they need. Not sure how i can make it any simpler for you.


Was talking to a lady the other day and she worded the way i feel better then i can. Folks should get paid a FAIR wage for what they do not EQUAL wage.

Show post

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

except that happened in western Europe and jobs didn't go away.

stores are 24/7 looking for young employees.

and what? equal wage? stock clerks don't get paid 50 an hour like the average software job.

your not living in reality

SaintLuke [2220265]

Just incase you didn't know, Western Europe and America...too completely different places....things that work there will not work here and vise versa... So stop trying to compare yall's way to our way. America is already in the process of automating many jobs, and has automated some jobs already.

fair wage, in my opinion means you get fair pay for the skills you are selling. If you are looking to be a cart pusher, burger flipper, cashier you are not offering any actual skill. So your pay should reflect that. Now say you are a welder, cowboy, doctor etc etc your pay should be dramatically higher.

Now if the min. wage goes up to $20+/H many of the skilled workers will make just as much as the unskilled workers. Because a company is not going to give everybody who was already making $20+/H a raise.

Just so you know, $20/H is damn good money in some states here in America. Living expense changes from state to state. There are many factors I'm assuming you don't know about... Example, here in West Texas i can afford a decent home with some land while still being comfortable, yet if i moved to California with my pay being the same...i could barely survive.


cost of living by states.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

the US has more wealth and income on average than Western Europe.

"things that work there will not work here and vise versa"

ok, prove it. prove your claim. you haven't submitted any argument or evidence. opinions arent valid without a solid foundation.

SaintLuke [2220265]

here is a quick link that shows the progress of automation in fast food.

cool huh

as for things that work for yall not working for us...hell you can start with gun laws and continue onto how we drive, measure and healthcare as well... The facts are there, and I could honestly care less about trying to "prove" how things there and here are different and your one size fits all solutions are BS.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

Uhm, sorry but I kinda knew about fast food robots for a while. I'm a programmer, I study machine learning and AI.

all of us are getting replaced. doesn't have anything to do with wages, if you knew anything about automation you would know that.

Limpd [789073]

I like pizza

Limpd [789073]

I like pizza

SaintLuke [2220265]

They got robots for that

Capgros [2088627]

We would have never come to the invention of the computer, wasn't it for government funded research was my point, and your statement is also not correct:

"Charles Babbage, an English polymath, is often thought of as “the man who invented computers”. From 1822 until his death in 1871, he designed 3 computers, but never actually constructed any of them, due to lack of funding."

"In 1938 the United States Navy invented the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC), possibly the world’s first electromechanical computer. It was designed to track a target, and aim & fire a torpedo from a submarine. At the time the Japanese also had an automated, torpedo firing computer on their submarines. However, it was not capable of tracking a target!"

and "capitalism" is no reason for any invention lol, the free market is great for the invention of consumer products made with the knowledge of basic understanding of concepts, funded by government research, that is my point

Show post

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I disagree with you. IBM was founded in 1911 already and they invented, manufactured and developed almost everything regarding computers privately.

Same goes for the invention and development of automobiles. Go read the biography of Henry Ford. Electronic vehicles also completely privately owned.

Most of telecommunication technology in the past y20 years were also completely privately invented. SamSung and Apple are examples. The reason for us having smartphones today that are basically computers are because of capitalism and competition within for-profit companies.

Most of your engineers who invent stuff today, do so on privately funded projects and that includes mechanical, electrical and civil engineering.

Capgros [2088627]

That's all not true, the automobile might be invented by a private company (I doubt it, probably the army) but the research that lead to for instance the combustion motor is surely because of government funded research, since that kind of research takes ages, and is not sure if it actually leads to something and to what it is, so no private company would invest in it, unless they get money from the government (like Tesla or lots of other companies that get large amounts of government money), so although private companies, their research is still government funded.

Telecom technology was mostly invented for the army, by government funding, whether the money was given to a private company and than invented doesn't matter, it's still government funded

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929310-200-state-of-innovation-busting-the-private-sector-myth/


"Apple is a perfect example. In its early stages the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the internet, GPS, touchscreen displays and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) bankrolled the internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the US is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state."

"The examples don’t just come from the military arena, either. The US National Institutes of Health spends around $30 billion every year on pharmaceutical and biotechnology research and is responsible for 75 per cent of the most innovative new drugs annually. Even the algorithm behind Google benefited from US National Science Foundation (NSF) funding."

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Ok point taken, although I still think government would not have any money to fund had it not been for the very large capitalist private sector paying taxes.

Thats why most of your inventions come from capitalist countries' private sectors and not the poor socialists.

So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism.

Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period.

Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding.

Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place.

Capgros [2088627]

Ok let's break this down:

"So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism."

Precisely not no, but there are many other ways, millions of years of inventions came before capitalism, sometimes faster,. sometimes slower

"Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period."


Only because they have the facilities and the government pays them to do so, it's because the capitalist system is made to function liken this, you cannot make a system where the mechanics are like this and than claim that the private sector invents more, in the USSR they could have claimed the same thing but than say it is the government


"Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding. "

the Tesla motor was invented by......Nicola Tesla, more than 100 years ago, actually To this day, Tesla’s patented AC motor system is still used in the majority of electric motors.

And rockets also existed before Musk was even born and come from the USSR, so nothing new there also

"Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place."

That is just an opinion, not a fact, for instance , the USSR in it's best times invented a lot of things also with a completely different system, as long as there are humans, inventions will be done, that's something human, not capitalist.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I totally disagree with everything you say.

Its actually a known fact that capitalism boosts innovation. For every USSR invention I can name 100 from the West.

Lets just agree to disagree then.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I disagree with you. IBM was founded in 1911 already and they invented, manufactured and developed almost everything regarding computers privately.

Same goes for the invention and development of automobiles. Go read the biography of Henry Ford. Electronic vehicles also completely privately owned.

Most of telecommunication technology in the past y20 years were also completely privately invented. SamSung and Apple are examples. The reason for us having smartphones today that are basically computers are because of capitalism and competition within for-profit companies.

Most of your engineers who invent stuff today, do so on privately funded projects and that includes mechanical, electrical and civil engineering.

Show post

Capgros [2088627]

That's all not true, the automobile might be invented by a private company (I doubt it, probably the army) but the research that lead to for instance the combustion motor is surely because of government funded research, since that kind of research takes ages, and is not sure if it actually leads to something and to what it is, so no private company would invest in it, unless they get money from the government (like Tesla or lots of other companies that get large amounts of government money), so although private companies, their research is still government funded.

Telecom technology was mostly invented for the army, by government funding, whether the money was given to a private company and than invented doesn't matter, it's still government funded

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929310-200-state-of-innovation-busting-the-private-sector-myth/


"Apple is a perfect example. In its early stages the company received government cash support via a $500,000 small business investment company grant. And every technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone owes its vision and funding to the state: the internet, GPS, touchscreen displays and even the voice-activated smartphone assistant Siri all received state cash. The US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) bankrolled the internet, and the CIA and the military funded GPS. So, although the US is sold to us as the model example of progress through private enterprise, innovation there has benefited from a very interventionist state."

"The examples don’t just come from the military arena, either. The US National Institutes of Health spends around $30 billion every year on pharmaceutical and biotechnology research and is responsible for 75 per cent of the most innovative new drugs annually. Even the algorithm behind Google benefited from US National Science Foundation (NSF) funding."

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

Ok point taken, although I still think government would not have any money to fund had it not been for the very large capitalist private sector paying taxes.

Thats why most of your inventions come from capitalist countries' private sectors and not the poor socialists.

So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism.

Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period.

Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding.

Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place.

Capgros [2088627]

Ok let's break this down:

"So the private sector pays taxes and then they invent for profit. The government then funds them their taxes back. This whole process would still not be possible without capitalism."

Precisely not no, but there are many other ways, millions of years of inventions came before capitalism, sometimes faster,. sometimes slower

"Your statement is also incorrect saying private sector turns something that already existed into consumer products. Most inventions take place in private sector period."


Only because they have the facilities and the government pays them to do so, it's because the capitalist system is made to function liken this, you cannot make a system where the mechanics are like this and than claim that the private sector invents more, in the USSR they could have claimed the same thing but than say it is the government


"Elon Musk invented the Tesla Motor and SpaceX rockets all on his own. Government then started funding. Not the other way around. Henry Ford invented the automobile without funding. "

the Tesla motor was invented by......Nicola Tesla, more than 100 years ago, actually To this day, Tesla’s patented AC motor system is still used in the majority of electric motors.

And rockets also existed before Musk was even born and come from the USSR, so nothing new there also

"Inventions for the most part take place in private sector for the purpose of profit. Then government comes and start funding them the huge revenue they get from the capitalist private sector in the first place."

That is just an opinion, not a fact, for instance , the USSR in it's best times invented a lot of things also with a completely different system, as long as there are humans, inventions will be done, that's something human, not capitalist.

ACCOUNT_CLOSED [2670493]

I totally disagree with everything you say.

Its actually a known fact that capitalism boosts innovation. For every USSR invention I can name 100 from the West.

Lets just agree to disagree then.

Capgros [2088627]

I do to so the feeling is mutual.

I think the concept of the word invention is then thing we see differently, I wouldn't for instance call the Iphone, or the Tesla car a new invention, basically those are devices build from existing technologies lumped together (especially the Iphone in this case). Also the people/companies that eventually profit from these new inventions (or devices) are normally not the ones that invented it in the first place, but that's a different story....

I don't think capitalism is a really bad system though, don't get me wrong, it's way better than many systems used before, I just think capitalism is getting too much credit for things it''s not responsible for. And I think at this moment of time capitalism needs to rethink itself, or it will destroy itself, consumption levels are way out of hand and that is a direct result of the capitalist system, or at least, how the system has been created where infinite growth is the goal.

edit: so yeah, agree to disagree seems a good option, respect for that!

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

Uhm, sorry but I kinda knew about fast food robots for a while. I'm a programmer, I study machine learning and AI.

all of us are getting replaced. doesn't have anything to do with wages, if you knew anything about automation you would know that.

Scuze [2270208]

Socialist, left winged (states) and remember socialism and communism are very different.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

except that happened in western Europe and jobs didn't go away.

stores are 24/7 looking for young employees.

and what? equal wage? stock clerks don't get paid 50 an hour like the average software job.

your not living in reality

Show post

SaintLuke [2220265]

Just incase you didn't know, Western Europe and America...too completely different places....things that work there will not work here and vise versa... So stop trying to compare yall's way to our way. America is already in the process of automating many jobs, and has automated some jobs already.

fair wage, in my opinion means you get fair pay for the skills you are selling. If you are looking to be a cart pusher, burger flipper, cashier you are not offering any actual skill. So your pay should reflect that. Now say you are a welder, cowboy, doctor etc etc your pay should be dramatically higher.

Now if the min. wage goes up to $20+/H many of the skilled workers will make just as much as the unskilled workers. Because a company is not going to give everybody who was already making $20+/H a raise.

Just so you know, $20/H is damn good money in some states here in America. Living expense changes from state to state. There are many factors I'm assuming you don't know about... Example, here in West Texas i can afford a decent home with some land while still being comfortable, yet if i moved to California with my pay being the same...i could barely survive.


cost of living by states.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

the US has more wealth and income on average than Western Europe.

"things that work there will not work here and vise versa"

ok, prove it. prove your claim. you haven't submitted any argument or evidence. opinions arent valid without a solid foundation.

SaintLuke [2220265]

here is a quick link that shows the progress of automation in fast food.

cool huh

as for things that work for yall not working for us...hell you can start with gun laws and continue onto how we drive, measure and healthcare as well... The facts are there, and I could honestly care less about trying to "prove" how things there and here are different and your one size fits all solutions are BS.

WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

Uhm, sorry but I kinda knew about fast food robots for a while. I'm a programmer, I study machine learning and AI.

all of us are getting replaced. doesn't have anything to do with wages, if you knew anything about automation you would know that.

SaintLuke [2220265]

Oh cool you play with robots! Don't really care, if you knew anything about business you would know folks are all about profit. Since you have nothing too add here, enjoy bro.