What are your political beliefs? | Politics & Law | TORN
What are your political beliefs?
  • MMCP WiseTheRumGone [2078276]WiseTheRumGone [2078276]
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    Thread created on 10:46:22 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Last replied 21:30:59 - 24/08/21 (3 months ago)
    So lets have a little soap box for everyone on this forum to let out where they stand on key issues.

    capitalism or socialsm, progression or conservation, green energy like nuclear and wind or fossil fuels, immigration vs closed borders, race, and maybe some philosophic positions?

    you can all format it a bit different but it would be cool if you tried to adress as many possble different beliefs as you can.



    My beliefs!

    il edit this if theres something you guys want me to adress further, and hopefully, many of you can write your own essay to explain your beliefs before going into lengthy discussions. il refrain from posting on this thread until a few here have posted thier beliefs.

    Others Beliefs

    in order of who posted first

    Tyrion
    Redrocket_aath
    Zicky

    Lennin
    LifeCheese
    SporksMonkey
    StyledCurve
    FistyBoy
    Klaus_Schwab
    Sweeney_todd
    Last edited by WiseTheRumGone on 11:38:50 - 19/08/21

    "Refusing to help a neighbor who's house burned down is shitty. Refusing when you helped start the fire is monstrous."

  • Viva Tyrion [1967379]Tyrion [1967379]
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    Posted on 11:30:46 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Instead of this division of this socalled complex society and way of life, I'm a firm believer in thinking without "boxes".

    Think locally and your surroundings and what's best for your own community longterm and when others do the same, maybe that's how we can build up a truly sustaining society and mutual understanding again, based on trust.

    First of all, let's try to communicate on an equal basis again to anyone you know in real life and stop listening to any poisoned media through the big outlets, like TV, newspapers and any centralised outlets.

    Without going into any detail, I'll give the mic to the next person here...
  • TDT RedRocket_Aath [2200354]RedRocket_Aath [2200354]
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    Posted on 11:40:47 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    my beliefs are complex and ever changing and span alot of ideologies, to the point that all sides of the political spectrum would probably take offence at me and think im always the other side. which is fine as it pretty much suits what im used to anyway in my upbringing. always used to being the outcast loner or the weird one lol

    anyway alot of my views i self critique and acknowledge are mostly all undoable utopic dreams and fantasies. which also i somewhat concede that the world is f**ked in many many different ways to the point of no return and isnt going to get any better. which is rather dystopic way of thinking. i am a type that wants utopia but admits that i am in a ever deepening dystopia of no return.

    in short government wise, Aath believes in Aath and just wants to exist on this planet in his lifetime without interferance from govs or society in any way, which is impossible because my life is intruded upon by society the very moment im born and society decides your life for you sends you to school to get a job that they have already decided your going to be a worker drone all your life for you and most people didnt question this when they was in their very first school but i did. i was somewhat rebelious but its only because i want a world in which i can exist without interference from others. which is never gonna happen... but i can make it close as i can if i make enough money on crypto and buy a yacht and live freely on the ocean as i please.

    i value freedom, and nature, and isolation, i guess those are perhaps the core driving principles of my life.

    edit: which makes me probably more like anarcho-primitive.... perhaps i was born in the wrong time and should have been born in a time of our ancestors living in a more wooded isolated less populated world. or perhaps its just that im more in touch with my natural being and animal instinct than most.

    also philosophically id say im pretty cynical, of the kind of the greek philosophy way. but then again i am british and apparently its pretty normal for british people to be cynical. id say cynicism and stoicism are to Europe what Buddhism and Taoism is to east asia. Diogenes of sinope was clearly the same type of story as Siddhartha Gautama, although gautama was from a rich wealthy family and had it all and had no reason to be depressed but still felt like his life had no meaning so gave it all up... where as Diogenes just naturally gave up on material things in life, they both arrived at the same spot, of which Buddhists call enlightened. Diogenes was the western buddha if you think on it, and stoicism and cynicism is the wests Buddhism and taoism, all naturally formed and thought of by the depression of living in a horrible society in a depressing life and working around that finding a way to live happily. they both had the answer and it is people like that we should take more notice of on how to live our lives for they found a way to live their lives happily and enlightened. and that is all that matters in life, not politics or forcing others to live how you want or paving the world into a city. but living a happy life free of depression and misery.
    Last edited by RedRocket_Aath on 11:59:24 - 11/05/21
  • 39th ZickyJackz [497258]ZickyJackz [497258]
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    Posted on 12:45:41 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

    So lets have a little soap box for everyone on this forum to let out where they stand on key issues.

    capitalism or socialsm, progression or conservation, green energy like nuclear and wind or fossil fuels, immigration vs closed borders, race, and maybe some philosophic positions?

    you can all format it a bit different but it would be cool if you tried to adress as many possble different beliefs as you can.



    My beliefs!

    il edit this if theres something you guys want me to adress further, and hopefully, many of you can write your own essay to explain your beliefs before going into lengthy discussions. il refrain from posting on this thread until a few here have posted thier beliefs.

    Others Beliefs

    in order of who posted first

    Tyrion
    Redrocket_aath
    Zicky

    Lennin
    LifeCheese
    SporksMonkey
    StyledCurve
    FistyBoy
    Klaus_Schwab
    Sweeney_todd
    Believe it or not, our views don't differ all that greatly.  


    One difference is Abortion. I think Abortion should only be allowed in cases of ****, incest, and saving the life of the mother. Other than that, there are so many ways to stop it before it gets to the point where you need to end a life.

    I'm all for equal rights. Be it man, woman, any race, beliefs(so long as you don't harm others), gender, whatever. We're all born as equals. We die as equals.

    I would love to support a UBI, but making it work is the real issue. How do we do it?

    And I completely agree on Prison reform. We punish here in America. We don't reform. I wish that were different. Obviously, there are some people deemed too dangerous for society, and there would be mental care facilities for such people.

  •   Hoch [1772040]Hoch [1772040]
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    Posted on 13:57:15 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    nuclear is green energy?

    ok.

    So you are volunteering Denmark to be the global nuclear waste repository site? Noice.

    Have a Great Day!

  • TDT RedRocket_Aath [2200354]RedRocket_Aath [2200354]
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    Posted on 13:58:41 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Hoch [1772040]

    nuclear is green energy?

    ok.

    So you are volunteering Denmark to be the global nuclear waste repository site? Noice.
    nuclear is green because it gives off that green radioactive glow lol
  •   Bhappychap [2270497]Bhappychap [2270497]
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    Posted on 14:42:26 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Hoch [1772040]

    nuclear is green energy?

    ok.

    So you are volunteering Denmark to be the global nuclear waste repository site? Noice.

    RedRocket_Aath [2200354]

    nuclear is green because it gives off that green radioactive glow lol
    Nuclear is "green" because it is the most efficient power producer to waste operation we have. 

    A country's entire set nuclear powerplants take less resources than even a single moderately sized wind or solar farm. Resources being the act of gathering materials, building, training people, and continued use over the years.

    It is also one of the safest, when compared with coal, gas, etc.

    In fact the only tricky part is waste disposal, of which is an actual concern. If we raise our nuclear capacity, the waste has a to have a good plan for cleaning/removal. While there has been advances here recently, its the elephant in the room there.
    Last edited by Bhappychap on 14:43:22 - 11/05/21
  • TDT RedRocket_Aath [2200354]RedRocket_Aath [2200354]
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    Posted on 14:44:57 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Hoch [1772040]

    nuclear is green energy?

    ok.

    So you are volunteering Denmark to be the global nuclear waste repository site? Noice.

    RedRocket_Aath [2200354]

    nuclear is green because it gives off that green radioactive glow lol

    Bhappychap [2270497]

    Nuclear is "green" because it is the most efficient power producer to waste operation we have.

    A country's entire set nuclear powerplants take less resources than even a single moderately sized wind or solar farm. Resources being the act of gathering materials, building, training people, and continued use over the years.

    It is also one of the safest, when compared with coal, gas, etc.

    In fact the only tricky part is waste disposal, of which is an actual concern. If we raise our nuclear capacity, the waste has a to have a good plan for cleaning/removal. While there has been advances here recently, its the elephant in the room there.
    we will be able to clean up radioactive waste one day, they say large hydron collider is a step towards that, member them mentioning it when i was watching it on tv the first time they fired it up.
  • JUX Lenin [2199004]Lenin [2199004]
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    Posted on 15:30:20 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    capitalism or socialsm, progression or conservation, green energy like nuclear and wind or fossil fuels, immigration vs closed borders, race, and maybe some philosophic positions?

    communism, idfk, nuclear, no borders, arm the disenfranchised

    i have a hard time explaining myself outside of arguments, gotta have something to focus on since i can and will bitch about literally everything. and i'll never be a liar, i'll give you my exact stance no matter how ugly. i'm a propagandist; maybe not the best one but it's what i do

    i'm here in p&l because i was raised and introduced to politics in backwood neocon cesspool forums, it almost feels like going back to my hometown in a way

    real talk tho if y'all seriously think this shit can go on forever but with bandaid fixes like green energy subsidies and ubi you should log off

    i care mostly about work. i take pride in my labour... pride in the history of workers and the working class, history hardly told. before i'm a canadian, or a communist, i'm a worker, as were my parents and their parents and their parents. i could never imagine being some clipboard-wielding people-minding bean counter when i can actually do something. so a lot of my life and time revolves around work and the consequences of it

    as this point in life, i have no idea how i could be convinced of capitalism in any form. i can't be a capitalist, because i don't own anyone's labour. to align myself with it would require some deep change in how i view people. maybe a stroke
    Last edited by Lenin on 15:35:23 - 11/05/21

    i am lenin, yea yea yea, lenin lenin lenin, yea yea yea

  • NUKE Lifecheese [2486313]Lifecheese [2486313]
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    Posted on 16:15:54 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

    So lets have a little soap box for everyone on this forum to let out where they stand on key issues.

    capitalism or socialsm, progression or conservation, green energy like nuclear and wind or fossil fuels, immigration vs closed borders, race, and maybe some philosophic positions?

    you can all format it a bit different but it would be cool if you tried to adress as many possble different beliefs as you can.



    My beliefs!

    il edit this if theres something you guys want me to adress further, and hopefully, many of you can write your own essay to explain your beliefs before going into lengthy discussions. il refrain from posting on this thread until a few here have posted thier beliefs.

    Others Beliefs

    in order of who posted first

    Tyrion
    Redrocket_aath
    Zicky

    Lennin
    LifeCheese
    SporksMonkey
    StyledCurve
    FistyBoy
    Klaus_Schwab
    Sweeney_todd
    Respectfully, I don't think you can call yourself a capitalist if you believe healthcare is a right. Even more importantly, this belief is inconsistent with your statement, "I dont like bureaucracy in government and want policy to be made easily enforced." If healthcare is a right, then you are entitled by law to someone else's labor. Nobody can refuse you something that is considered (by the beaurocracy you dislike) to be a necessary treatment. That means that if said  bureaucracy determines something to be necessary, then any care provider must do it under penalty of law regardless of whether it violates their conscience or not. Saying everyone should have healthcare is one thing. Calling it a right is something else entirely.

    private healthcare in places like the US is a market failure.

    No, it's a bureaucracy failure. The laws regarding healthcare in the US are so convoluted and complex that every hospital needs entire teams of people just to ensure compliance. Most of these laws do little if anything to protect the patient. They simply guarantee that insurance companies have the means to make profit. If you get rid of most of these laws then prices can become public knowledge and customers can pay cash when needed while knowing the cost beforehand. These cash prices would be much lower than you may think.

    Also, there is a reason that most medical innovation comes out of the US. That innovation has a cost as well.

    reform over punishment. the prison system in scandinavia is simply just better than other places. it costs less to operate, has a lower recidivisy rate, and results in less crime overall.

    While I agree that our justice system should focus on reform, comparing the numbers in nations with different cultures and vastly different populations is not the same as making a valid point regarding policy.

    circumsizion should be banned for this reason. and religion should not be preached to children.

    Sorry, but that's authoritarianism. I'm smelling some inconsistency here.

    every single study ever conducted has overwelmingly supported it. we are causing it. and we know how much of it is because of us. and we need to stop it fast before its too late.

    Stating that a problem exists is not the same as offering a valid solution. The whole "someone needs to do something" line is old and trite.

    Income inequality. i believe different people are entitled to earn different wages, however, working 40 hours a week, and not being paid a livign wage, is absurd. like ive said many times, SOMEONE has to be the guy flipping burgers

    False. Society can function just fine without a human being to flip burgers. If you can't pay your bills, you need to either find a better job or develop the skills that will allow you to do so. Is it a low of hard work to do so? Yes, it is. But I did it. I have coached more than a dozen others through doing it. If your ambition ends at minimum wage, there is no reason that the government should simply hand you more or require your employer to do so.

    I had to listen to a guy last week complain about how he cannot live on minimum wage. While we were having this conversation he was standing directly in front of a yard sign (and I wish I was kidding) that said, "Hiring Now. $20.40/hr. No background check required. Overtime available regularly. Benefits available after probationary period." In case you're not aware, "No background check required" is code for "We don't care about your criminal record."

    and just before someone goes "they can just get better skills and move up". SOMEONE has to be part of the bottom 10% if every single person right now in the bottom 10% moved up, it would just result in the bottom 10-20% going to the same place. nothing would be different.

    Again, false. Yes, someone will be part of the bottom [insert percentage here]. That does not mean that an injustice has been done. If the bottom 10% can afford their basic needs, then things are in fact different and they would not in fact be going to the same place. This is just incorrect on its face. Obviously the bottom 10% were worse off 100 years ago then they are now. Not only that, the list of countries where someone might rather be in the bottom 10% is likely pretty short. Economic growth may not help everyone equally, but it does help just about everyone.

    If burger flippers become expensive enough, the job will become automated. If every burger flipper in the country learned a skillset that earned them better money, then burger flippers would be scarce. Therefore, burger flippers would make better money until the process becomes mostly automated. The biggest thing preventing this is not societal injustice, but the burger flippers undervaluing their labor and their capacity to develop more valuable skillsets. When burger flippers are easy to find and they only value their labor at minimum wage, they get minimum wage. Nobody gets to simply go through life never learning anything or growing and expect that they will be valued. That is not the real world. If you want to be worth anything to anyone you need to continually learn for your whole life. Otherwise you're not going to be worth more than $7.25/hr to anyone.

    i think abortions shoulndt be a thing.

    Why? Is it because it is a human life? If so, your position makes no sense. If not, then saying it shouldn't happen makes no sense.

    THE WORLD IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME! we have a pie, but that pie is not just what it is. we can make it bigger. and we have, thats what the industrial revoulution did! you might ask yourself why your country might give billions to some random country in africa, well, remember WW2?

    Seriously? Are you listening to yourself? There is no consistency in your statements. None.
  • NS Capgros [2088627]Capgros [2088627]
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    Posted on 16:37:09 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    WiseTheRumGone [2078276]

    So lets have a little soap box for everyone on this forum to let out where they stand on key issues.

    capitalism or socialsm, progression or conservation, green energy like nuclear and wind or fossil fuels, immigration vs closed borders, race, and maybe some philosophic positions?

    you can all format it a bit different but it would be cool if you tried to adress as many possble different beliefs as you can.



    My beliefs!

    il edit this if theres something you guys want me to adress further, and hopefully, many of you can write your own essay to explain your beliefs before going into lengthy discussions. il refrain from posting on this thread until a few here have posted thier beliefs.

    Others Beliefs

    in order of who posted first

    Tyrion
    Redrocket_aath
    Zicky

    Lennin
    LifeCheese
    SporksMonkey
    StyledCurve
    FistyBoy
    Klaus_Schwab
    Sweeney_todd

    Lifecheese [2486313]

    Respectfully, I don't think you can call yourself a capitalist if you believe healthcare is a right. Even more importantly, this belief is inconsistent with your statement, "I dont like bureaucracy in government and want policy to be made easily enforced." If healthcare is a right, then you are entitled by law to someone else's labor. Nobody can refuse you something that is considered (by the beaurocracy you dislike) to be a necessary treatment. That means that if said bureaucracy determines something to be necessary, then any care provider must do it under penalty of law regardless of whether it violates their conscience or not. Saying everyone should have healthcare is one thing. Calling it a right is something else entirely.

    private healthcare in places like the US is a market failure.

    No, it's a bureaucracy failure. The laws regarding healthcare in the US are so convoluted and complex that every hospital needs entire teams of people just to ensure compliance. Most of these laws do little if anything to protect the patient. They simply guarantee that insurance companies have the means to make profit. If you get rid of most of these laws then prices can become public knowledge and customers can pay cash when needed while knowing the cost beforehand. These cash prices would be much lower than you may think.

    Also, there is a reason that most medical innovation comes out of the US. That innovation has a cost as well.

    reform over punishment. the prison system in scandinavia is simply just better than other places. it costs less to operate, has a lower recidivisy rate, and results in less crime overall.

    While I agree that our justice system should focus on reform, comparing the numbers in nations with different cultures and vastly different populations is not the same as making a valid point regarding policy.

    circumsizion should be banned for this reason. and religion should not be preached to children.

    Sorry, but that's authoritarianism. I'm smelling some inconsistency here.

    every single study ever conducted has overwelmingly supported it. we are causing it. and we know how much of it is because of us. and we need to stop it fast before its too late.

    Stating that a problem exists is not the same as offering a valid solution. The whole "someone needs to do something" line is old and trite.

    Income inequality. i believe different people are entitled to earn different wages, however, working 40 hours a week, and not being paid a livign wage, is absurd. like ive said many times, SOMEONE has to be the guy flipping burgers

    False. Society can function just fine without a human being to flip burgers. If you can't pay your bills, you need to either find a better job or develop the skills that will allow you to do so. Is it a low of hard work to do so? Yes, it is. But I did it. I have coached more than a dozen others through doing it. If your ambition ends at minimum wage, there is no reason that the government should simply hand you more or require your employer to do so.

    I had to listen to a guy last week complain about how he cannot live on minimum wage. While we were having this conversation he was standing directly in front of a yard sign (and I wish I was kidding) that said, "Hiring Now. $20.40/hr. No background check required. Overtime available regularly. Benefits available after probationary period." In case you're not aware, "No background check required" is code for "We don't care about your criminal record."

    and just before someone goes "they can just get better skills and move up". SOMEONE has to be part of the bottom 10% if every single person right now in the bottom 10% moved up, it would just result in the bottom 10-20% going to the same place. nothing would be different.

    Again, false. Yes, someone will be part of the bottom [insert percentage here]. That does not mean that an injustice has been done. If the bottom 10% can afford their basic needs, then things are in fact different and they would not in fact be going to the same place. This is just incorrect on its face. Obviously the bottom 10% were worse off 100 years ago then they are now. Not only that, the list of countries where someone might rather be in the bottom 10% is likely pretty short. Economic growth may not help everyone equally, but it does help just about everyone.

    If burger flippers become expensive enough, the job will become automated. If every burger flipper in the country learned a skillset that earned them better money, then burger flippers would be scarce. Therefore, burger flippers would make better money until the process becomes mostly automated. The biggest thing preventing this is not societal injustice, but the burger flippers undervaluing their labor and their capacity to develop more valuable skillsets. When burger flippers are easy to find and they only value their labor at minimum wage, they get minimum wage. Nobody gets to simply go through life never learning anything or growing and expect that they will be valued. That is not the real world. If you want to be worth anything to anyone you need to continually learn for your whole life. Otherwise you're not going to be worth more than $7.25/hr to anyone.

    i think abortions shoulndt be a thing.

    Why? Is it because it is a human life? If so, your position makes no sense. If not, then saying it shouldn't happen makes no sense.

    THE WORLD IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME! we have a pie, but that pie is not just what it is. we can make it bigger. and we have, thats what the industrial revoulution did! you might ask yourself why your country might give billions to some random country in africa, well, remember WW2?

    Seriously? Are you listening to yourself? There is no consistency in your statements. None.
    Also, there is a reason that most medical innovation comes out of the US. That innovation has a cost as well.

    Not really, you are fourth in the world, so the type of healthcare system doesn't say that much, it's more important how rich the country is and willing to spend ion r&d, at least half of the countries have a social healthcare system in the top 4:

    https://freopp.org/united-states-health-system-profile-4-in-the-world-index-of-healthcare-innovation-b593ba15a96

    Not that you are doing bad, but certainly not the best at the moment


    The USA is bad in spending:

    On the other hand, the U.S. ranked second-to-last in Fiscal Sustainability (#30, 27.33), because it is the country with the highest amount of government health care spending per capita, spending that is growing at an unsustainable rate.

    Strange considering the coverage is much lower than for instance the Netherlands or Germany, that also are better on the invention rates
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    Posted on 16:53:16 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Capgros [2088627]

    Also, there is a reason that most medical innovation comes out of the US. That innovation has a cost as well.

    Not really, you are fourth in the world, so the type of healthcare system doesn't say that much, it's more important how rich the country is and willing to spend ion r&d, at least half of the countries have a social healthcare system in the top 4:

    https://freopp.org/united-states-health-system-profile-4-in-the-world-index-of-healthcare-innovation-b593ba15a96

    Not that you are doing bad, but certainly not the best at the moment


    The USA is bad in spending:

    On the other hand, the U.S. ranked second-to-last in Fiscal Sustainability (#30, 27.33), because it is the country with the highest amount of government health care spending per capita, spending that is growing at an unsustainable rate.

    Strange considering the coverage is much lower than for instance the Netherlands or Germany, that also are better on the invention rates
    From that article:

    "The U.S. also ranked first in Science & Technology. Indeed, the margin between the U.S. and second-place Denmark was by far the highest recorded in any dimension of the Index, driving America’s overall ranking. The U.S. ranked first in the number of new drugs & medical devices gaining regulatory approval; first by a wide margin in Nobel prizes in chemistry or medicine per capita; and second in scientific impact as measured by citations. The U.S. also ranked fourth in R&D expenditures per capita. This leadership in scientific impact directly translates into treatments that are developed by nearby pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies, especially around hubs such as Boston and the San Francisco Bay Area."

    Their definition of "innovation" may differ from mine, but their conclusion regarding technological developments is the same.

    We have two major problems. First, we have giant problems with overlitigation that inflates costs on both ends by encouraging unnecessary tests and treatments as well as spreading the cost of lawsuits across the board to patients. Second, our laws and insurance system are massively convoluted and result in things like cash prices for ibuprofen given at a hospital being $50 per pill. Simplifying the laws and regulations would at least result in patients being able to pay reasonable cash prices.
    Last edited by Lifecheese on 16:58:15 - 11/05/21
  • NS Capgros [2088627]Capgros [2088627]
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    Posted on 17:03:15 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Capgros [2088627]

    Also, there is a reason that most medical innovation comes out of the US. That innovation has a cost as well.

    Not really, you are fourth in the world, so the type of healthcare system doesn't say that much, it's more important how rich the country is and willing to spend ion r&d, at least half of the countries have a social healthcare system in the top 4:

    https://freopp.org/united-states-health-system-profile-4-in-the-world-index-of-healthcare-innovation-b593ba15a96

    Not that you are doing bad, but certainly not the best at the moment


    The USA is bad in spending:

    On the other hand, the U.S. ranked second-to-last in Fiscal Sustainability (#30, 27.33), because it is the country with the highest amount of government health care spending per capita, spending that is growing at an unsustainable rate.

    Strange considering the coverage is much lower than for instance the Netherlands or Germany, that also are better on the invention rates

    Lifecheese [2486313]

    From that article:

    "The U.S. also ranked first in Science & Technology. Indeed, the margin between the U.S. and second-place Denmark was by far the highest recorded in any dimension of the Index, driving America’s overall ranking. The U.S. ranked first in the number of new drugs & medical devices gaining regulatory approval; first by a wide margin in Nobel prizes in chemistry or medicine per capita; and second in scientific impact as measured by citations. The U.S. also ranked fourth in R&D expenditures per capita. This leadership in scientific impact directly translates into treatments that are developed by nearby pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies, especially around hubs such as Boston and the San Francisco Bay Area."

    Their definition of "innovation" may differ from mine, but their conclusion regarding technological developments is the same.

    We have two major problems. First, we have giant problems with overlitigation that inflates costs on both ends by encouraging unnecessary tests and treatments as well as spreading the cost of lawsuits across the board to patients. Second, our laws and insurance system are massively convoluted and result in things like cash prices for ibuprofen given at a hospital being $50 per pill. Simplifying the laws and regulations would at least result in patients being able to pay reasonable cash prices.
    Innovation, I guess, has also to do with making healthcare available for the public, you can have tons of inventions, but if they don't get to the public in general it's pretty useless.

    Also, guess who pays for those innovations in the USA, mainly the government and through gifts and not the private companies profiting from those innovations. I think your system can be way more cheaper without cutting on R&D at all by making it a more public system. The middle men are stealing the cookies now without refilling the jar.
  • TDT RedRocket_Aath [2200354]RedRocket_Aath [2200354]
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    Posted on 17:06:03 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    healthcare isnt free anywhere though, its paid for by the government so your not getting a health workers labour for free, they are being paid by the gov, who gets their money from tax, which means your paying for it anyway so its not technically free lol

    as for which is personally the most expensive way. i dunn but i hear americas fees are pretty insane and need sorting out. it comes to a point where in the uk it doesnt matter how much health tax i pay in my entire life americans will pay more for a prescription than i will in a lifetime of health tax. this is mainly because americas private health system is corrupt and is overpricing you all. so its hard to judge private health care when if its done right and with controls and no corruption it very well could actually be cheaper than paying a lifetime of health tax.
  • NUKE Lifecheese [2486313]Lifecheese [2486313]
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    Posted on 17:19:30 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Capgros [2088627]

    Innovation, I guess, has also to do with making healthcare available for the public, you can have tons of inventions, but if they don't get to the public in general it's pretty useless.

    Also, guess who pays for those innovations in the USA, mainly the government and through gifts and not the private companies profiting from those innovations. I think your system can be way more cheaper without cutting on R&D at all by making it a more public system. The middle men are stealing the cookies now without refilling the jar.
    The middle men are stealing the cookies now without refilling the jar.

    Yes, but the way they are doing so is all completely above board. They are protected by our convoluted healthcare laws. Do you think that will suddenly get better if we have the government foot the bill for all healthcare? I sure don't.
    Last edited by Lifecheese on 17:19:51 - 11/05/21
  • NS Capgros [2088627]Capgros [2088627]
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    Posted on 17:27:34 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Capgros [2088627]

    Innovation, I guess, has also to do with making healthcare available for the public, you can have tons of inventions, but if they don't get to the public in general it's pretty useless.

    Also, guess who pays for those innovations in the USA, mainly the government and through gifts and not the private companies profiting from those innovations. I think your system can be way more cheaper without cutting on R&D at all by making it a more public system. The middle men are stealing the cookies now without refilling the jar.

    Lifecheese [2486313]

    The middle men are stealing the cookies now without refilling the jar.

    Yes, but the way they are doing so is all completely above board. They are protected by our convoluted healthcare laws. Do you think that will suddenly get better if we have the government foot the bill for all healthcare? I sure don't.
    Yeah I think so, a lot of these companies don't have to research new things to make a profit, they will squeeze as much as possible out of the old ways before investing in something that might not even be a success. that's why government funded research in all sectors is by far the biggest help in moving forward.
  • NUKE Lifecheese [2486313]Lifecheese [2486313]
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    Posted on 17:37:54 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Capgros [2088627]

    Yeah I think so, a lot of these companies don't have to research new things to make a profit, they will squeeze as much as possible out of the old ways before investing in something that might not even be a success. that's why government funded research in all sectors is by far the biggest help in moving forward.
    Right, but the people who benefit under the corrupt system now are not going to suddenly accept defeat and go home. If the same government that they loot and manipulate now suddenly has additional trillions up for grabs, they're going to grab it just as they always have. So government-funded solution is only practical once we have created a system that lacks the waste and injustice created by our massive glut of foolish laws. If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive, not less. We have to fix the endemic problems before a public option is even viable.
  • NS Capgros [2088627]Capgros [2088627]
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    Posted on 17:51:53 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    Capgros [2088627]

    Yeah I think so, a lot of these companies don't have to research new things to make a profit, they will squeeze as much as possible out of the old ways before investing in something that might not even be a success. that's why government funded research in all sectors is by far the biggest help in moving forward.

    Lifecheese [2486313]

    Right, but the people who benefit under the corrupt system now are not going to suddenly accept defeat and go home. If the same government that they loot and manipulate now suddenly has additional trillions up for grabs, they're going to grab it just as they always have. So government-funded solution is only practical once we have created a system that lacks the waste and injustice created by our massive glut of foolish laws. If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive, not less. We have to fix the endemic problems before a public option is even viable.
    "If our healthcare becomes government funded, it is likely to get more expensive"

    Worldwide statistics disagree, for instance, here in Spain we are much poorer, but healthcare is much more available and we pay less per person. Maybe some ultra rich person has to go to the US for a special ultra new kind of treatment, but the average Joe is far better off here in terms of healthcare.

    for the rest, without the government you wouldn't be able to use your computer or the internet because it simply wouldn't exist, this was the result of government funded research that broaden our understanding of how thing work in general, the private sector just took something that already existed and turned it into a consumer product, but nothing fundamental new was made by this sector.
  •   Asemov [2270413]Asemov [2270413]
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    Posted on 19:49:51 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    RedRocket_Aath [2200354]

    healthcare isnt free anywhere though, its paid for by the government so your not getting a health workers labour for free, they are being paid by the gov, who gets their money from tax, which means your paying for it anyway so its not technically free lol

    as for which is personally the most expensive way. i dunn but i hear americas fees are pretty insane and need sorting out. it comes to a point where in the uk it doesnt matter how much health tax i pay in my entire life americans will pay more for a prescription than i will in a lifetime of health tax. this is mainly because americas private health system is corrupt and is overpricing you all. so its hard to judge private health care when if its done right and with controls and no corruption it very well could actually be cheaper than paying a lifetime of health tax.
    This is actually something the previous administration claimed to want to improve.

    Transparency in health care.

    As it stands; you don't really know how much anything costs - Because it's assumed insurance companies will pay whatever the hospital sends them.

    The previous administration wanted to curtail that by forcing them to be upfront about costs and pricing on everything from procedures to your annual flu shot.

    By being more transparent on costs you would be creating a more competitive environment, and open the market to more alternatives (Which was another objective of the previous administration)

    Anytime people talk about how Healthcare in the US per capita is expensive - Just remember Obama Care exists, and is expensive and wasteful, and it's unfortunate the Republicans didn't seem to keen on creating an alternative instead of talking about how bad it was.

    Edit: Just to clarify I think Obama Care is one of the reasons the United States cost per capita is so ridiculously high, but it's the best proposed health care model that exists in the United States - Currently, when the opposition refuses to do anything more than tell people it's expensive (It is) And won't propose their own solution.
    Last edited by Asemov on 16:54:58 - 12/05/21

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  • MMCP WiseTheRumGone [2078276]WiseTheRumGone [2078276]
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    Posted on 22:57:58 - 11/05/21 (6 months ago)
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    so policy wise heres my beliefs:

    I'm a capitalist, i do however, i do believe exploitation needs to be controlled. unions are a good thing.

    im a heavy advocate for green energy like wind and nuclear.

    I dont like bureaucracy in government and want policy to be made easily enforced. UBI > welfare. (edge cases like mental illness or people rith severe birth defects should ofcourse get more than just UBI)

    I dont believe value is always what someone is willing to pay. sometimes its accurate, but for medical treatments? no. id take a million dollar loan in a heartbeat if it meant i could get treatment for a deadly illness. (not that i have one) even if it was just a mass produced pill that costs 2 cents to make. healthcare needs to be provided as a right. just like roads, just like police, just like primary education. private healthcare in places like the US is a market failure.

    reform over punishment. the prison system in scandinavia is simply just better than other places. it costs less to operate, has a lower recidivisy rate, and results in less crime overall.

    i want a world, where every child thats born has a shot in life. no matter the country. and i dont want a life forced upon babies that cant even speak. circumsizion should be banned for this reason. and religion should not be preached to children.

    global warming is real. every single study ever conducted has overwelmingly supported it. we are causing it. and we know how much of it is because of us. and we need to stop it fast before its too late.

    feminism. im a feminist, but also a mens rights advocate. let me explain. women throughout the world are being opressed in many countries. women have to fulfill their roles or be shunned by their peers. thats wrong. people should not be forced into gender roles if they dont want to.

    dont discriminate against someone for their gender. women can be managers, women can be police officers, women can be presidents. that dosent mean we should just give up our roles to women, it means we should give them the same chance as men.

    but, men are also being mistreated. in most cases, child custody isnt something to worry about, even most bad marriages lead to a child going to visit both parents, but in case of family courts. the mother always gets the child. no matter what. and the father is forced to pay child support. i support child support, but the ability for any mother to just take their kids away from a father without any reason, is just absurd to me.

    racism is real. in every country in the world, minorites are being mistreated. some to a larger degree than others. sadly, its part of human nature. we are built to asociate ourselves better with people like ourselves. for any white person out there, chinese people have no problem seeing the difference between other chinese people, but they do have issues seeing the difference between other white people. this is genetic. your not born racist, but you do have the ability to see small differences between people of the same race as you, that cant with other races. this can be learned however. i for example grew up in a very arabic neighbourhood and i can very easily discern them from each other.


    Income inequality. i believe different people are entitled to earn different wages, however, working 40 hours a week, and not being paid a livign wage, is absurd. like ive said many times, SOMEONE has to be the guy flipping burgers. its a ESSENTIAL JOB. is it easy to learn? yes. can almost anyone do it? yes. is everyone willing to do it? NO. every job should be respected. its a job. you are working. your doing your part in society, and should not be looked down upon. i dont wanna live in a world where the bottom 10% of the workforce have to be paid pennies for their work.

    and just before someone goes "they can just get better skills and move up". SOMEONE has to be part of the bottom 10% if every single person right now in the bottom 10% moved up, it would just result in the bottom 10-20% going to the same place. nothing would be different.


    abortion. in a perfect world, where every child can be taken care of by foster parents, and familes can be supported in tough times. everyone having access to sex ed and condoms. and medical treatments exist where the parent isnt in danger. i think abortions shoulndt be a thing. but thats not the world we live in. having an early child can doom the future of many young and bright couples.

    I believe in individual responsibility more than anyone else on this board. I AM THE ONLY PERSON IN MY LIFE WHO DECIDES MY FUTURE. but reality check, people arent perfect, people arent logical and that can end up bad. every person is vulnerable sometimes. people often choose what they think is best for themselves. so if you make the correct choices EASIER and SIMPLER they will make that choice more often. small things can sway people in the correct path.

    science is real. its the reason we can even play torn. its the reason half of us survived since childbirth (look child mortality pre industrial era). vaccines have been the greatest gift to humanity since sanitation. they save countless lives and are extremely safe. take astrazeneca or whatever its called. millions of doses given, and even without a single death, a few issues casued their rollout to be paused due to extreme caution. circumsision has a higher deathrate than the corona vaccine and no one bats an eye.

    THE WORLD IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME! we have a pie, but that pie is not just what it is. we can make it bigger. and we have, thats what the industrial revoulution did! you might ask yourself why your country might give billions to some random country in africa, well, remember WW2? the US spent countless money on rebuilding many countries, including for example japan, which has made incredible scientific discoveries since then.

    heres a fact, when a random farmer in a third world country gets to send their kids to school, those kids might end up curing cancer, every single one. YOU benefit from the success of others. supporting others to become better isnt charity, its a good long term investment.


    il edit this if theres something you guys want me to adress further, and hopefully, many of you can write your own essay to explain your beliefs before going into lengthy discussions. il refrain from posting on this thread until a few here have posted thier beliefs.
    Last edited by WiseTheRumGone on 11:31:07 - 19/08/21

    "Refusing to help a neighbor who's house burned down is shitty. Refusing when you helped start the fire is monstrous."

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