Why remove self-jailing during attacks? - Page 7 | General Dis…
Why remove self-jailing during attacks?
  • |X| MIKK [1771931]MIKK [1771931]
    • MIKK [1771931]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 100
    • Posts: 1653
    • Karma: 6839
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 16:39:06 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Pops [1025410]

    ched response

    shame that another skill based mechanic is removed, in favour of farmville. sometimes i wonder whats even the point of playing when everything of skill is removed / so heavily watered down that as long as you make an action within 5 hours you are safe. Torn a crime based game, now with 482% less crime.

    I think torn is one of the only games that actively tries to remove skill, maybe its audience now are so far removed from being competitive that it makes sense? maybe its ched's design to force no end game opportunity, so that people quit and the game is less about playing and more about chatting. (the chat functionality is complete dogshit too, we'd be 100% better off just migrating entirely to discord or IRC).
    Ironically the devs are working on Chats 2.0.. I guess that says everything about the games coming future.
  • HeLa Knossos [1671911]Knossos [1671911]
    • Knossos [1671911]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 80
    • Posts: 993
    • Karma: 1718
    • Last Action: 3 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 16:47:23 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Phil-I-P [2035498]

    What next? Not being able to race while in hospital? Not being able to access items while in jail? Not being allowed to travel with weapons?
    Not being allowed to play the game if you commit crimes and have weapons.
  • CR Untouchable [1360035]Untouchable [1360035]
    • Untouchable [1360035]
    • Role: Committee
    • Level: 100
    • Posts: 4693
    • Karma: 5702
    • Last Action: 54 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 18:00:55 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    deft [979003]

    This was being abused by scripters. I'm surprised that bans aren't issued since there should be an API delay on incoming attacks and users were self jailing on my 3rd turn in the attack. I've reported people and no result.

    I had another guy that was idle for 20 minutes change his bazaar price 4 seconds into an attack so that when I zeroed him out my friend on voice couldn't purchase his items for a mug. I reported him and nothing has happened.

    It is a shame that the people who run this game have taken such a soft stance on cheating and just let things run rampant.

    811 [1921241]

    This wasn't me, but what you described probably isn't scripting: "I had another guy that was idle for 20 minutes change his bazaar price 4 seconds into an attack so that when I zeroed him out my friend on voice couldn't purchase his items for a mug. I reported him and nothing has happened."

    I often bait buy muggers. I have 3 tabs open, sometimes 4. 1 tab is my vault which has keyboard focus, 1 tab is my bazaar management page with price changes preloaded - this has the mouse hovering over change. The 3rd is an attack page for someone else.

    If someone buys and goes to attack, I can ctrl-v [enter] 'max' in my vault and bank within 1-3 seconds. If someone initiates and attack, I can see either my life drop and just flinch to click change, or even see my tyro be triggered on the attack page. I can reliably do this in 3 seconds or less. Also, since I'm not moving on the pages it'll show me idle for x minutes, sometimes 30 mins or more if I'm watching YouTube.

    3rd attack turn is like 3 seconds, and if someone is waiting for it it's not hard. If there are people scripting out there to abuse this, which sounds plausible, this here isn't the evidence for it.

    deft [979003]

    If you are active around torn then your setup makes sense. However, If watching youtube or doing anything else how do you have a kneejerk reaction to prevent a mug within 3 seconds? Sounds like a bunch of BS. Even with that clever setup, to consistently be able to protect oneself in under 3 seconds while idle is not legit, that's a non-API script. If it's a one off then benefit of the doubt could be given, but if a pattern exists it's a script. Wish ched would do something about it when it's obvious.

    Back on topic, I fully support measures to block illegal scripting like the one in this thread. Since staff/developers don't have the audacity to ban actual cheaters the least they can do is take preventive measures to patch the loopholes. There's probably a clever way to block the price change scripting but that's a story for another thread.

    Untouchable [1360035]

    I could write a legal script to alert me when somebody inituates an attack on me, none use the api and all of them are legal.

    if you open the the page manually, you can scrape it for data, for instance I leave my RPi open on the rules page and every second it checks my health, if it drops it pings me, then I can do whatever you acuse people of doing with the bazaar, or self jail, self hosp etc. no rules were broken


    The people you’re accusing of cheating likely aren’t, you just don’t understand the scripting rules. No rule says you can’t use non-API means to collect data, it says you must have manually opened the page, then you scrape it, but you can’t automatically open pages.


    For instance, opening each of the stocks on the stock page to grab data was absolutely happening in the old stock system, that would be illegal.

    edit: rule for reference

    The use of scripts, extensions, applications or any other kind of software is allowed only if it uses data from our API or a page you have loaded manually and are currently viewing. They cannot make additional non-API requests to Torn, scrape pages that you're not currently viewing, or attempt to bypass the captcha. If the software you're using makes non-API requests that are not manually triggered by you, it is not allowed and can be tracked. Furthermore, releasing software which has malicious or undisclosed abilities is forbidden.

    twerkalator [2080083]

    So for the sake of the example, if you're on the rules page when this happens, legally you'd have to make at least 2 inputs right?

    1) manually click bookmark to bazaar manage items screen
    1.5) script changes numbers here, near instant once text boxes have loaded
    2) manually click the save changes button

    would automating step 2 be allowed because it doesn't change the page url?

    obviously it's gated by human speed still but far faster than doing it all manually, but if you were one or two shot you wouldn't have a chance to use it anyway. are people consistently pulling this off regardless of the amount of time it takes to kill them?
    Nope, I can have a popup when the event is triggered that says 'go to bazaar: yes/no' with auto focus on yes so i just hit enter. It goes to bazaar page, fills in the input, same popup comes up 'save changes? yes/no' click enter again. 

    I manually triggered the event, I just had the script make it easier for me, a similar script to vault on start of an attack was created and given the ok by IBF, its honestly trivial to do.

    4th best GAK in the game for sale! $40b obo

  • CR Untouchable [1360035]Untouchable [1360035]
    • Untouchable [1360035]
    • Role: Committee
    • Level: 100
    • Posts: 4693
    • Karma: 5702
    • Last Action: 54 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 18:02:35 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    HerrSchmidt [2069746]

    There's a lot of scripts like torn tools that alert you when your life drops below 100% it's quite simple

    Esp if you pop a sero or similar here... with the delays in attack turns now... it's plenty long enough to hear an alert and make the changes that are ready pre loaded.

    Also, you'd be surprised how many people are bored enough to stare like nerds at a page for half hr to bait a mug lol

    Im all for reducing attack time and making mugging great again, don't worry... unfortunately it's all rather simple to do at the moment.

    LTJELLOMAN [1161626]

    I thought the life loss notification is on a 15 second API call? so unless your life dropped 1 second before the call it shouldn't ping you that fast
    You can have a script just run on any page you open, or a page like rules and leave it open at all times, and monitor the life element on the page. No need to use the API for that one, refer to my comment above stating the rule.

    4th best GAK in the game for sale! $40b obo

  • JUX marsey99 [1404499]marsey99 [1404499]
    • marsey99 [1404499]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 85
    • Posts: 5273
    • Karma: 909
    • Last Action: 2 hours
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 19:24:34 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    DeKleineKobini [2114440]

    Reading through this thread there are a few things to say.

    1. If all committee members had the same opinion, then why would we have more than 1 anyway? We need different opinions.

    2. From a logical standpoint, it was a stupid mechanic. I'm against this change though. Not because of losing that mechanic, but because someone could now lock you out of crimes for 5 minutes, just by initiating an attack. I don't care about the ability to get away from attacks, but goddammit, let me do my f**king crimes.

    Proxima [1879587]

    They could already lock you out of Gym, Travelling, Busting...but they don't, because that'd be a nutty way to spend 25e

    What's 5 mins for some crimes anyway?

    marsey99 [1404499]

    For some people that's their entire window for playing each day, or half day.

    If this ain't a bug it is another nerf to the game that's not needed.

    Proxima [1879587]

    I'm sure there are people who can only get on for 5 minutes at a time, or a day, of course.

    I'm also sure it'd be overdramatic to say anyone is going to be completely prevented from doing crimes, gym, busting and travelling for their entire Torn career.
    I don't agree with that, sorry prox.

    If you was super active and was sat on someone in that position you could effectively stop them playing indefinitely. Should one wish like.
  • I.R. dunmugmeh [538353]dunmugmeh [538353]
    • dunmugmeh [538353]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 100
    • Posts: 18230
    • Karma: 25525
    • Last Action: 1 hour
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 19:45:53 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Proxima [1879587]




    All that "skill" it takes to click a high fail-rate crime while you're losing a fight.

    hope he comes for SEDs next lol
    Yes sir! Dont forget about ghost trades as well! It is time for the terrified field mice to store their 'spare' money in stonkz rather than ghost trades!

    Forum signatures make my eyes hurt so i have turned them off.

    My tornography

    https://www.torn.com/newspaper.php#!/articles/285 

  • TW* Mises [2041947]Mises [2041947]
    • Mises [2041947]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 70
    • Posts: 316
    • Karma: 161
    • Last Action: 52 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 20:03:35 - 18/09/21 (29 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Proxima [1879587]




    All that "skill" it takes to click a high fail-rate crime while you're losing a fight.

    hope he comes for SEDs next lol

    MIKK [1771931]

    not sure why you are even a committee member
    thanks for your valuable input as always

    Lenin [2199004]

    to support decisions like these apparently, jeez

    how detrimental is self-hosping mid-attack? is this a chronic problem among the top shelf players?

    i get the cheeky one in now and then and it's a novel delight, and a total waste of med cd

    Proxima [1879587]

    Committee weren't aware of this

    But you think for the price of ~26 nerve on average and a tiny smidge of CE you should be able to nullify any attack you want?

    I'd be surprised if the majority of the Committee don't think it was silly. It was vaguely justified when you lost a shit tonne of CE for it, and no one really thought about it - at least in the context of changing it - since the CE change.
    tbh it's a pretty price for avoiding an attack an announcement would have been in order right?
  • [BS] NicoRob1n [1622199]NicoRob1n [1622199]
    • NicoRob1n [1622199]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 87
    • Posts: 78
    • Karma: 5
    • Last Action: 25 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 23:38:03 - 18/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Pops [1025410]

    ched response

    shame that another skill based mechanic is removed, in favour of farmville. sometimes i wonder whats even the point of playing when everything of skill is removed / so heavily watered down that as long as you make an action within 5 hours you are safe. Torn a crime based game, now with 482% less crime.

    I think torn is one of the only games that actively tries to remove skill, maybe its audience now are so far removed from being competitive that it makes sense? maybe its ched's design to force no end game opportunity, so that people quit and the game is less about playing and more about chatting. (the chat functionality is complete dogshit too, we'd be 100% better off just migrating entirely to discord or IRC).
    pushing crime button when your suddenly losing hp on screen was skill?
    as far as i know it was exploited.
  • NS twerkalator [2080083]twerkalator [2080083]
    • twerkalator [2080083]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 99
    • Posts: 169
    • Karma: 466
    • Last Action: 44 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:09:47 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    twerkalator [2080083]

    So what exactly is the issue here? Is it the fact that they removed it, or that it was removed during a competition with no notice? I can think of a few situations where removing it like this would be warranted, but rather than go on about that I'd rather talk about what I understand to be the whole self-jailing-removal issue as it exists. The situation as I understand it is:

    1. A mechanic exists that isn't intended, but can be used for getting out of attacks in dire situations or for trolling. At this point it's mostly inoffensive despite the advantage it gives in certain situations.
    2. Knowledge of the mechanic gains popularity, it's fun but it's not being abused and it's good for a laugh or some "oh shit" moments where a player is vulnerable or makes a mistake.
    3. People begin to become known for using the mechanic, this feeds back into its usage and notoriety.
    4. The mechanic is weaponized, both by scripters and non-scripters, to ensure that they never lose an attack, buymug or trademug. At this point it is a problem because the mechanic itself has no counterplay, e.g. you can still self-jail at 0 life when you should already be in the hospital.
    5. Said mechanic, which wasn't intended in the first place, is patched unceremoniously at the height of its usage. The mechanic is frustrating now because a) it's used in any and every situation where it might be beneficial, b) the user is now effectively immune to certain intended game mechanics and c) it's an unpunishable fix for player mistakes where it might be relevant.

    It sucks to lose such an effective tool, but as a counterplay measure it's TOO good. Counterplay should have counterplay as well. Let me preface this by saying, I've never self-jailed because I try to make sure I don't put myself in a situation where I'd want to use it, such as getting mugged for a large amount, and I don't really care to use it to troll attackers either. I'm open to correction here, so feel free to let me know if I'm wrong or have any misconceptions.

    From my understanding, self-jailing can't really be prevented apart from the player failing to do so before the attack is considered over by the server. It's not a mechanic where you need luck or skill to pull off, either, especially if you are intending to use it or have a window open for quick usage. When you involve a script the success rate is likely almost perfect. Even if you only use self-jailing to rectify a mistake (like not banking your cash on hand or going AFK at a bad time, like when landing) the fact that it's so successful with little to stop it is exactly why it should be AT LEAST changed, if not removed.

    With Elim going on the mechanic is likely being used more than ever before for a few reasons, namely: dodging hosp time, dodging ticket loss, more likely to be mugged randomly with cash on hand by accident, more attacks being started overall, and probably some other reasons that I didn't think of. Even if you argue that it's available to everyone, one could argue that it violates the spirit of the event and also gives even more advantages than normal to those more able to pull it off. You're supposed to get hit, you're supposed to lose tickets and you're supposed to eat hosp time and get fisted by leaf_bikini and deft until your prostate is an blood-oozing, unrecognizable mess.

    I didn't read the whole thread before responding because who has time for that shit, but I also saw someone mention that now weaker players have no counterplay to stronger players, and unfortunately, that's just how Torn is to an extent. Activity and time played, and what you accomplish during that time, is king in this game. Some players may have accomplished more in a shorter time (a few names come to mind), but they figured out a way to do it efficiently and consistently, and so they're entitled to reap the rewards. If you find yourself to be a target often, maybe keep a lower profile. Lots of people love to talk shit and whine when they rightfully get smashed by someone who earned their stripes. Torn isn't a game with training wheels and knee pads, you either seek out the knowledge you need or you become some 5000 day global chatter with a 2 mil stat line. If your current strategy isn't working, change your game instead of relying on something that wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with.

    tl;dr: lmao owned

    kok [2316623]

    Why do you think it wasn't intended but it had it's own event (X tried to attack you), activity log entry (X attacked you but failed due to a status change), showed up in attack log with a specific message (Y was surrounded by police). Looks very much intended, otherwise the game would just shit itself and give out the wrong message according to the result. Ched even commented he doesn't mind the mechanic and never recanted that statement.
    So the least we can do is pretend it was "fixed", because it was changed and it was used with developers knowing.
    Thanks for correcting me. I didn't realize there were specific messages in place, I've actually never had it happen to me, or did it to anyone else. I didn't even really realize it was a problem, apart from the occasional complaint.

    I guess my question then, to the relevant people is: what changed? If it was an acceptable mechanic before, and now it isn't, there must be a reason for the change. Is it really just a matter of the squeaky wheel getting the grease?

    3_2080083.png

  • NS twerkalator [2080083]twerkalator [2080083]
    • twerkalator [2080083]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 99
    • Posts: 169
    • Karma: 466
    • Last Action: 44 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:19:21 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    deft [979003]

    This was being abused by scripters. I'm surprised that bans aren't issued since there should be an API delay on incoming attacks and users were self jailing on my 3rd turn in the attack. I've reported people and no result.

    I had another guy that was idle for 20 minutes change his bazaar price 4 seconds into an attack so that when I zeroed him out my friend on voice couldn't purchase his items for a mug. I reported him and nothing has happened.

    It is a shame that the people who run this game have taken such a soft stance on cheating and just let things run rampant.

    811 [1921241]

    This wasn't me, but what you described probably isn't scripting: "I had another guy that was idle for 20 minutes change his bazaar price 4 seconds into an attack so that when I zeroed him out my friend on voice couldn't purchase his items for a mug. I reported him and nothing has happened."

    I often bait buy muggers. I have 3 tabs open, sometimes 4. 1 tab is my vault which has keyboard focus, 1 tab is my bazaar management page with price changes preloaded - this has the mouse hovering over change. The 3rd is an attack page for someone else.

    If someone buys and goes to attack, I can ctrl-v [enter] 'max' in my vault and bank within 1-3 seconds. If someone initiates and attack, I can see either my life drop and just flinch to click change, or even see my tyro be triggered on the attack page. I can reliably do this in 3 seconds or less. Also, since I'm not moving on the pages it'll show me idle for x minutes, sometimes 30 mins or more if I'm watching YouTube.

    3rd attack turn is like 3 seconds, and if someone is waiting for it it's not hard. If there are people scripting out there to abuse this, which sounds plausible, this here isn't the evidence for it.

    deft [979003]

    If you are active around torn then your setup makes sense. However, If watching youtube or doing anything else how do you have a kneejerk reaction to prevent a mug within 3 seconds? Sounds like a bunch of BS. Even with that clever setup, to consistently be able to protect oneself in under 3 seconds while idle is not legit, that's a non-API script. If it's a one off then benefit of the doubt could be given, but if a pattern exists it's a script. Wish ched would do something about it when it's obvious.

    Back on topic, I fully support measures to block illegal scripting like the one in this thread. Since staff/developers don't have the audacity to ban actual cheaters the least they can do is take preventive measures to patch the loopholes. There's probably a clever way to block the price change scripting but that's a story for another thread.

    Untouchable [1360035]

    I could write a legal script to alert me when somebody inituates an attack on me, none use the api and all of them are legal.

    if you open the the page manually, you can scrape it for data, for instance I leave my RPi open on the rules page and every second it checks my health, if it drops it pings me, then I can do whatever you acuse people of doing with the bazaar, or self jail, self hosp etc. no rules were broken


    The people you’re accusing of cheating likely aren’t, you just don’t understand the scripting rules. No rule says you can’t use non-API means to collect data, it says you must have manually opened the page, then you scrape it, but you can’t automatically open pages.


    For instance, opening each of the stocks on the stock page to grab data was absolutely happening in the old stock system, that would be illegal.

    edit: rule for reference

    The use of scripts, extensions, applications or any other kind of software is allowed only if it uses data from our API or a page you have loaded manually and are currently viewing. They cannot make additional non-API requests to Torn, scrape pages that you're not currently viewing, or attempt to bypass the captcha. If the software you're using makes non-API requests that are not manually triggered by you, it is not allowed and can be tracked. Furthermore, releasing software which has malicious or undisclosed abilities is forbidden.

    twerkalator [2080083]

    So for the sake of the example, if you're on the rules page when this happens, legally you'd have to make at least 2 inputs right?

    1) manually click bookmark to bazaar manage items screen
    1.5) script changes numbers here, near instant once text boxes have loaded
    2) manually click the save changes button

    would automating step 2 be allowed because it doesn't change the page url?

    obviously it's gated by human speed still but far faster than doing it all manually, but if you were one or two shot you wouldn't have a chance to use it anyway. are people consistently pulling this off regardless of the amount of time it takes to kill them?

    Untouchable [1360035]

    Nope, I can have a popup when the event is triggered that says 'go to bazaar: yes/no' with auto focus on yes so i just hit enter. It goes to bazaar page, fills in the input, same popup comes up 'save changes? yes/no' click enter again.

    I manually triggered the event, I just had the script make it easier for me, a similar script to vault on start of an attack was created and given the ok by IBF, its honestly trivial to do.
    Thanks for the explanation. I do a bit of scripting for my work but it's rarely related to scraping or web pages, so I didn't realize how efficient it could make you. Still, it doesn't seem that overpowered - you still need to actually be there and actively be playing for it to work. You still could technically screw up, or not be fast enough, or make some other mistake.

    Navigation without user input seems like a reasonable place to draw the line as far as rules go. I'm sure they could also change the rules themselves should the existing rule not be enough to eliminate elements of script use that are horrendously unfair or not fun. I agree with you that for an experienced scripter it would be trivial, and I also don't think it would take an unfair amount of time or effort for someone with no experience to make one if they put in the work.

    3_2080083.png

  • TGL Yazi [2139270]Yazi [2139270]
    • Yazi [2139270]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 31
    • Posts: 2553
    • Karma: 575
    • Last Action: 18 hours
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:35:05 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    ultraman: "Time to finish you off!"
    Police: "Sorry about that, this one's a criminal."

  • LDN HaramBae [2095421]HaramBae [2095421]
    • HaramBae [2095421]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 90
    • Posts: 1607
    • Karma: 2111
    • Last Action: 3 hours
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:40:40 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Phil-I-P [2035498]

    If we're going for super realism, can I have Leslie arrested for assault? I'm spending a million big ones just so that prick can choke me out.
    People have offered me more for the same thing willingly. One man's assault is another one's kink
  • Bird SkinnyPeen [2176021]SkinnyPeen [2176021]
    • SkinnyPeen [2176021]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 97
    • Posts: 3523
    • Karma: 6510
    • Last Action: 29 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:41:30 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    Noooooo ched bring it back. You'd get it off like 35 percent of the time, it most certainly wasn't op. 

    It was, however, quirky and hilarious. What the f**k is CE anyway

    Bomb MDMA, not women and children.

    5e1ac7ce2a61391ad35f714f5e2d5d29.png 

  • NS twerkalator [2080083]twerkalator [2080083]
    • twerkalator [2080083]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 99
    • Posts: 169
    • Karma: 466
    • Last Action: 44 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:42:19 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    twerkalator [2080083]

    So what exactly is the issue here? Is it the fact that they removed it, or that it was removed during a competition with no notice? I can think of a few situations where removing it like this would be warranted, but rather than go on about that I'd rather talk about what I understand to be the whole self-jailing-removal issue as it exists. The situation as I understand it is:

    1. A mechanic exists that isn't intended, but can be used for getting out of attacks in dire situations or for trolling. At this point it's mostly inoffensive despite the advantage it gives in certain situations.
    2. Knowledge of the mechanic gains popularity, it's fun but it's not being abused and it's good for a laugh or some "oh shit" moments where a player is vulnerable or makes a mistake.
    3. People begin to become known for using the mechanic, this feeds back into its usage and notoriety.
    4. The mechanic is weaponized, both by scripters and non-scripters, to ensure that they never lose an attack, buymug or trademug. At this point it is a problem because the mechanic itself has no counterplay, e.g. you can still self-jail at 0 life when you should already be in the hospital.
    5. Said mechanic, which wasn't intended in the first place, is patched unceremoniously at the height of its usage. The mechanic is frustrating now because a) it's used in any and every situation where it might be beneficial, b) the user is now effectively immune to certain intended game mechanics and c) it's an unpunishable fix for player mistakes where it might be relevant.

    It sucks to lose such an effective tool, but as a counterplay measure it's TOO good. Counterplay should have counterplay as well. Let me preface this by saying, I've never self-jailed because I try to make sure I don't put myself in a situation where I'd want to use it, such as getting mugged for a large amount, and I don't really care to use it to troll attackers either. I'm open to correction here, so feel free to let me know if I'm wrong or have any misconceptions.

    From my understanding, self-jailing can't really be prevented apart from the player failing to do so before the attack is considered over by the server. It's not a mechanic where you need luck or skill to pull off, either, especially if you are intending to use it or have a window open for quick usage. When you involve a script the success rate is likely almost perfect. Even if you only use self-jailing to rectify a mistake (like not banking your cash on hand or going AFK at a bad time, like when landing) the fact that it's so successful with little to stop it is exactly why it should be AT LEAST changed, if not removed.

    With Elim going on the mechanic is likely being used more than ever before for a few reasons, namely: dodging hosp time, dodging ticket loss, more likely to be mugged randomly with cash on hand by accident, more attacks being started overall, and probably some other reasons that I didn't think of. Even if you argue that it's available to everyone, one could argue that it violates the spirit of the event and also gives even more advantages than normal to those more able to pull it off. You're supposed to get hit, you're supposed to lose tickets and you're supposed to eat hosp time and get fisted by leaf_bikini and deft until your prostate is an blood-oozing, unrecognizable mess.

    I didn't read the whole thread before responding because who has time for that shit, but I also saw someone mention that now weaker players have no counterplay to stronger players, and unfortunately, that's just how Torn is to an extent. Activity and time played, and what you accomplish during that time, is king in this game. Some players may have accomplished more in a shorter time (a few names come to mind), but they figured out a way to do it efficiently and consistently, and so they're entitled to reap the rewards. If you find yourself to be a target often, maybe keep a lower profile. Lots of people love to talk shit and whine when they rightfully get smashed by someone who earned their stripes. Torn isn't a game with training wheels and knee pads, you either seek out the knowledge you need or you become some 5000 day global chatter with a 2 mil stat line. If your current strategy isn't working, change your game instead of relying on something that wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with.

    tl;dr: lmao owned

    FidelCashflow [1993550]

    The counterplay is that they bail you out and attack again.
    Fair point. How many times on average can you self-jail on a full nerve bar, and on average how much nerve does it cost to self-jail (i.e. cost of crime x number of attempts)? 

    In terms of cost for each time someone self jails during x number of attacks, I imagine the attacker ends up paying far more just to attempt to attack the person self-jailing. The self-jailer might stand to lose more if the attacker is successful, but every time they self-jail they also have another chance to stash their money, as one example. Seems like relatively weak counterplay to self-jailing, which was allegedly very effective at doing what it did.

    It's probably not that deep of a decision, but I think it's an idea worth exploring in the debate between keeping or removing self-jailing. Getting rid of self-jailing definitely doesn't solve the "problem" of people being able to consistently save their own hide faster than an attack can be completed, which is what I think the root of the complaints is. ¯\_(?)_/¯

    3_2080083.png

  • CR Jas [522441]Jas [522441]
    • Jas [522441]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 100
    • Posts: 1427
    • Karma: 6079
    • Last Action: 53 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:50:39 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Proxima [1879587]




    All that "skill" it takes to click a high fail-rate crime while you're losing a fight.

    hope he comes for SEDs next lol

  • |X| Scarley [2261969]Scarley [2261969]
    • Scarley [2261969]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 92
    • Posts: 1857
    • Karma: 4039
    • Last Action: 35 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 05:59:36 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    twerkalator [2080083]

    So what exactly is the issue here? Is it the fact that they removed it, or that it was removed during a competition with no notice? I can think of a few situations where removing it like this would be warranted, but rather than go on about that I'd rather talk about what I understand to be the whole self-jailing-removal issue as it exists. The situation as I understand it is:

    1. A mechanic exists that isn't intended, but can be used for getting out of attacks in dire situations or for trolling. At this point it's mostly inoffensive despite the advantage it gives in certain situations.
    2. Knowledge of the mechanic gains popularity, it's fun but it's not being abused and it's good for a laugh or some "oh shit" moments where a player is vulnerable or makes a mistake.
    3. People begin to become known for using the mechanic, this feeds back into its usage and notoriety.
    4. The mechanic is weaponized, both by scripters and non-scripters, to ensure that they never lose an attack, buymug or trademug. At this point it is a problem because the mechanic itself has no counterplay, e.g. you can still self-jail at 0 life when you should already be in the hospital.
    5. Said mechanic, which wasn't intended in the first place, is patched unceremoniously at the height of its usage. The mechanic is frustrating now because a) it's used in any and every situation where it might be beneficial, b) the user is now effectively immune to certain intended game mechanics and c) it's an unpunishable fix for player mistakes where it might be relevant.

    It sucks to lose such an effective tool, but as a counterplay measure it's TOO good. Counterplay should have counterplay as well. Let me preface this by saying, I've never self-jailed because I try to make sure I don't put myself in a situation where I'd want to use it, such as getting mugged for a large amount, and I don't really care to use it to troll attackers either. I'm open to correction here, so feel free to let me know if I'm wrong or have any misconceptions.

    From my understanding, self-jailing can't really be prevented apart from the player failing to do so before the attack is considered over by the server. It's not a mechanic where you need luck or skill to pull off, either, especially if you are intending to use it or have a window open for quick usage. When you involve a script the success rate is likely almost perfect. Even if you only use self-jailing to rectify a mistake (like not banking your cash on hand or going AFK at a bad time, like when landing) the fact that it's so successful with little to stop it is exactly why it should be AT LEAST changed, if not removed.

    With Elim going on the mechanic is likely being used more than ever before for a few reasons, namely: dodging hosp time, dodging ticket loss, more likely to be mugged randomly with cash on hand by accident, more attacks being started overall, and probably some other reasons that I didn't think of. Even if you argue that it's available to everyone, one could argue that it violates the spirit of the event and also gives even more advantages than normal to those more able to pull it off. You're supposed to get hit, you're supposed to lose tickets and you're supposed to eat hosp time and get fisted by leaf_bikini and deft until your prostate is an blood-oozing, unrecognizable mess.

    I didn't read the whole thread before responding because who has time for that shit, but I also saw someone mention that now weaker players have no counterplay to stronger players, and unfortunately, that's just how Torn is to an extent. Activity and time played, and what you accomplish during that time, is king in this game. Some players may have accomplished more in a shorter time (a few names come to mind), but they figured out a way to do it efficiently and consistently, and so they're entitled to reap the rewards. If you find yourself to be a target often, maybe keep a lower profile. Lots of people love to talk shit and whine when they rightfully get smashed by someone who earned their stripes. Torn isn't a game with training wheels and knee pads, you either seek out the knowledge you need or you become some 5000 day global chatter with a 2 mil stat line. If your current strategy isn't working, change your game instead of relying on something that wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with.

    tl;dr: lmao owned

    FidelCashflow [1993550]

    The counterplay is that they bail you out and attack again.

    twerkalator [2080083]

    Fair point. How many times on average can you self-jail on a full nerve bar, and on average how much nerve does it cost to self-jail (i.e. cost of crime x number of attempts)?

    In terms of cost for each time someone self jails during x number of attacks, I imagine the attacker ends up paying far more just to attempt to attack the person self-jailing. The self-jailer might stand to lose more if the attacker is successful, but every time they self-jail they also have another chance to stash their money, as one example. Seems like relatively weak counterplay to self-jailing, which was allegedly very effective at doing what it did.

    It's probably not that deep of a decision, but I think it's an idea worth exploring in the debate between keeping or removing self-jailing. Getting rid of self-jailing definitely doesn't solve the "problem" of people being able to consistently save their own hide faster than an attack can be completed, which is what I think the root of the complaints is. ¯\_(?)_/¯
    it's not primarily done to stash money, from what i've seen. you can just as quickly open a ghost trade and hide the money as you can open crimes and spam click. 

    it's mostly used to avoid retals, as a way to find out who is repeatedly stealth attacking you, or just out of pure trolling i think.
  • NS twerkalator [2080083]twerkalator [2080083]
    • twerkalator [2080083]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 99
    • Posts: 169
    • Karma: 466
    • Last Action: 44 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 06:06:40 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    twerkalator [2080083]

    So what exactly is the issue here? Is it the fact that they removed it, or that it was removed during a competition with no notice? I can think of a few situations where removing it like this would be warranted, but rather than go on about that I'd rather talk about what I understand to be the whole self-jailing-removal issue as it exists. The situation as I understand it is:

    1. A mechanic exists that isn't intended, but can be used for getting out of attacks in dire situations or for trolling. At this point it's mostly inoffensive despite the advantage it gives in certain situations.
    2. Knowledge of the mechanic gains popularity, it's fun but it's not being abused and it's good for a laugh or some "oh shit" moments where a player is vulnerable or makes a mistake.
    3. People begin to become known for using the mechanic, this feeds back into its usage and notoriety.
    4. The mechanic is weaponized, both by scripters and non-scripters, to ensure that they never lose an attack, buymug or trademug. At this point it is a problem because the mechanic itself has no counterplay, e.g. you can still self-jail at 0 life when you should already be in the hospital.
    5. Said mechanic, which wasn't intended in the first place, is patched unceremoniously at the height of its usage. The mechanic is frustrating now because a) it's used in any and every situation where it might be beneficial, b) the user is now effectively immune to certain intended game mechanics and c) it's an unpunishable fix for player mistakes where it might be relevant.

    It sucks to lose such an effective tool, but as a counterplay measure it's TOO good. Counterplay should have counterplay as well. Let me preface this by saying, I've never self-jailed because I try to make sure I don't put myself in a situation where I'd want to use it, such as getting mugged for a large amount, and I don't really care to use it to troll attackers either. I'm open to correction here, so feel free to let me know if I'm wrong or have any misconceptions.

    From my understanding, self-jailing can't really be prevented apart from the player failing to do so before the attack is considered over by the server. It's not a mechanic where you need luck or skill to pull off, either, especially if you are intending to use it or have a window open for quick usage. When you involve a script the success rate is likely almost perfect. Even if you only use self-jailing to rectify a mistake (like not banking your cash on hand or going AFK at a bad time, like when landing) the fact that it's so successful with little to stop it is exactly why it should be AT LEAST changed, if not removed.

    With Elim going on the mechanic is likely being used more than ever before for a few reasons, namely: dodging hosp time, dodging ticket loss, more likely to be mugged randomly with cash on hand by accident, more attacks being started overall, and probably some other reasons that I didn't think of. Even if you argue that it's available to everyone, one could argue that it violates the spirit of the event and also gives even more advantages than normal to those more able to pull it off. You're supposed to get hit, you're supposed to lose tickets and you're supposed to eat hosp time and get fisted by leaf_bikini and deft until your prostate is an blood-oozing, unrecognizable mess.

    I didn't read the whole thread before responding because who has time for that shit, but I also saw someone mention that now weaker players have no counterplay to stronger players, and unfortunately, that's just how Torn is to an extent. Activity and time played, and what you accomplish during that time, is king in this game. Some players may have accomplished more in a shorter time (a few names come to mind), but they figured out a way to do it efficiently and consistently, and so they're entitled to reap the rewards. If you find yourself to be a target often, maybe keep a lower profile. Lots of people love to talk shit and whine when they rightfully get smashed by someone who earned their stripes. Torn isn't a game with training wheels and knee pads, you either seek out the knowledge you need or you become some 5000 day global chatter with a 2 mil stat line. If your current strategy isn't working, change your game instead of relying on something that wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with.

    tl;dr: lmao owned

    FidelCashflow [1993550]

    The counterplay is that they bail you out and attack again.

    twerkalator [2080083]

    Fair point. How many times on average can you self-jail on a full nerve bar, and on average how much nerve does it cost to self-jail (i.e. cost of crime x number of attempts)?

    In terms of cost for each time someone self jails during x number of attacks, I imagine the attacker ends up paying far more just to attempt to attack the person self-jailing. The self-jailer might stand to lose more if the attacker is successful, but every time they self-jail they also have another chance to stash their money, as one example. Seems like relatively weak counterplay to self-jailing, which was allegedly very effective at doing what it did.

    It's probably not that deep of a decision, but I think it's an idea worth exploring in the debate between keeping or removing self-jailing. Getting rid of self-jailing definitely doesn't solve the "problem" of people being able to consistently save their own hide faster than an attack can be completed, which is what I think the root of the complaints is. ¯\_(?)_/¯

    Scarley [2261969]

    it's not primarily done to stash money, from what i've seen. you can just as quickly open a ghost trade and hide the money as you can open crimes and spam click.

    it's mostly used to avoid retals, as a way to find out who is repeatedly stealth attacking you, or just out of pure trolling i think.
    Well shit. I don't even really see a problem with that. I can understand maybe disabling it during competitions like Elim for those participating, but during the course of gameplay... it really doesn't seem like much more than an annoyance. I was under the impression that people were using it to save their own ass, repeatedly.

    3_2080083.png

  • TW* savit [1899598]savit [1899598]
    • savit [1899598]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 84
    • Posts: 667
    • Karma: 280
    • Last Action: 44 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 06:28:34 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link
    I feel this is one more way the game keeps increasing the focus on old and high stat players, over new and active.

    SmxNTHp.png

  • PT Legaci [2100546]Legaci [2100546]
    • Legaci [2100546]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 98
    • Posts: 903
    • Karma: 2731
    • Last Action: 48 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 10:39:51 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    Proxima [1879587]




    All that "skill" it takes to click a high fail-rate crime while you're losing a fight.

    hope he comes for SEDs next lol

    MIKK [1771931]

    not sure why you are even a committee member
    thanks for your valuable input as always

    Lenin [2199004]

    to support decisions like these apparently, jeez

    how detrimental is self-hosping mid-attack? is this a chronic problem among the top shelf players?

    i get the cheeky one in now and then and it's a novel delight, and a total waste of med cd

    Proxima [1879587]

    Committee weren't aware of this

    But you think for the price of ~26 nerve on average and a tiny smidge of CE you should be able to nullify any attack you want?

    I'd be surprised if the majority of the Committee don't think it was silly. It was vaguely justified when you lost a shit tonne of CE for it, and no one really thought about it - at least in the context of changing it - since the CE change.
    Kinda have to agree with prox here, the mechanic is virtually a free, get out card!

    Do you get involved with stocks?

    Do you wish you had access to stock history and stats?

    Look no further...

    Check this thread.

  • PT cookdandbombd [2450557]cookdandbombd [2450557]
    • cookdandbombd [2450557]
    • Role: Civilian
    • Level: 80
    • Posts: 504
    • Karma: 1162
    • Last Action: 5 minutes
    • Quote
    • Report
      • 0
    • Reason:
      Are you sure you want to report this post to staff?
      Cancel
    Posted on 12:33:53 - 19/09/21 (28 days ago)
    Post link copied to clipboard Copy post link

    twerkalator [2080083]

    Well shit. I don't even really see a problem with that. I can understand maybe disabling it during competitions like Elim for those participating, but during the course of gameplay... it really doesn't seem like much more than an annoyance. I was under the impression that people were using it to save their own ass, repeatedly.
    That's tricky to quantify, but as a general rule, the frequency with which you encounter someone self-jailing is going to be determined by the sort of people you are attacking. 

    So... Out of 8000 attacks, I've seen it exactly once. That was just three months ago, when JUX were taking a spanking from PnB. Mucho self-jailed to nullify my attack and sent me a cheeky message :-D It's fair to say that we were both highly entertained, and that it broke up the monotony of warring/attacking.

    It's one of those cool little mechanics that gives Torn so much charm, like drive-bys. A damn shame that the CE cost is evidently so negligible that Ched now considers it unbalanced.
Reply
Thread Title: