saltyvalves - Page 6 | Graveyard | TORN
saltyvalves
    • finally [2060206]
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    Posted on 22:02:52 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Unlucky [2472585]

    You don’t understand how tax deductibles works and it shows.

    finally [2060206]

    Wrong thread bro, but I edited it, appreciate your useless input tho!

    Unlucky [2472585]

    Always happy to tell someone they don’t understand what they’re on about.
    Always happy to tell someone they aren't on the right thread :)

    sugarvalves is a piece of shit

    • Beerstein [1322136]
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    Posted on 22:05:04 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Mr-Fixer [447734]

    I have to say i do not like the idea of this life time subscriber status for donations, just my 2 cents as this is not really cosmetic imo, i cant imagine how much someone would have to donate to get this reward.
    If it's at $1,000 even that'd be more than it'd have costed for donor status/sub since the game came out.

    That said, only Torn has metrics on value there, though it's not even going towards Torn. Lifetime subs have certainly workeed on other games like Star Trek Online, it's a big incentive for returning players over the years for example. I don't think it's terrible to have as a reward, just has to be VERY clearly thought out.

    If a primary income source is donor packs FROM subscribers for example, it might make sense to get that lifetime sub out to tkeep those players interest via sunk cost fallacy and keep them buying donor packs for cash etc. This is all stuff we can't see.
    Last edited by Beerstein on 22:06:40 - 22/11/22

     

    • MightyGoober [812478]
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    Posted on 22:10:01 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Mr-Fixer [447734]

    I have to say i do not like the idea of this life time subscriber status for donations, just my 2 cents as this is not really cosmetic imo, i cant imagine how much someone would have to donate to get this reward.

    Beerstein [1322136]

    If it's at $1,000 even that'd be more than it'd have costed for donor status/sub since the game came out.

    That said, only Torn has metrics on value there, though it's not even going towards Torn. Lifetime subs have certainly workeed on other games like Star Trek Online, it's a big incentive for returning players over the years for example. I don't think it's terrible to have as a reward, just has to be VERY clearly thought out.

    If a primary income source is donor packs FROM subscribers for example, it might make sense to get that lifetime sub out to tkeep those players interest via sunk cost fallacy and keep them buying donor packs for cash etc. This is all stuff we can't see.
    That's something that also baffles me.

    Offering lifetime sub status, is lost revenue.
    Torn is a business. The only goal of a business is to make money.

    It's just..... strange.

    • ANARCHIA [2632824]
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    Posted on 22:14:16 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    bogie [148747]

    There's "being genuinely curious" and "just being an asshole". That much is obvious from the "sure bud" when provided with actual sources from the owner himself.

    The gains you'd get from this are in no way going to be needed "to keep up", unless you're maybe entering fashion contests on the regular.

    You'd also have the option to donate directly, by seeing the actual charities on the charity page itself, by all means feel free to donate to them. This isn't a zero sum game... You can literally do that.
    what about the free book?

    the rewards listed in sugarvalves' post aren't "just cosmetic" even if you all like to repeat this. you can say that they aren't game changing, but at least a couple of them have a weird p2w smell. doesn't matter who actually gets the money, if you can throw money at the game to have unreasonable rewards it's p2w. simple as that.

    since there is a lot of heat in here and both users and staff have let their tongues run wild both in this thread, the other and even private DMs, i'll state clearly that i have no problems with the Charity Center in itself.
    since the first time it popped out of the weekly changelog i expected exactly something like this. except the rewards.
    • Nova [1570883]
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    Posted on 22:14:23 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    bogie [148747]

    Intention or not it's exactly what you achieved through your misinformation...

    If you don't want to use such a system then don't use it. If you want to donate money to Torn to get benefits then you're always better off doing regular donator packs. The purpose of the charity centre would never be a "pay to win" system, as it would be largely cosmetic with some minor perks, that would no doubt be not quite as good as buying donator packs, but unique enough where there's some people who would be interested.

    This whole system is about Torn working alongside it's community to benefit the world as a whole, and provide an incentive for people to donate for charitable causes.

    The whole argument of "but I could claim this myself!!!" is a bit ridiculous in my view as if that's the case then go ahead and do that directly to the charity then? That's great! Win win! You get what you want and the charity, which is what we want to benefit here, rather than Torn in any way, gets support!

    But were you ever going to do that? Probably not... The whole point here is about giving some way where people would donate to charity and get something they might want in place of that, utilising the community as a whole to really make a larger difference for society.

    We have a great community here in Torn, and want what we've done here to help make the world better.
    He does have a point though.

    In the UK, if I donated £50K to the charity myself, I would receive tax relief in the form of gift aid, by grossing up the BRB by £62.5k (£50K/0.8), therefore increasing my basic rate band from £37.7k to £100.2k, receiving tax relief on the income donated as this income would be taxed at 20% rather than 40%.

    Or if I donate through a payroll giving scheme, the donation is directly deducted from my employment income, therefore once again I don't pay tax on that income.

    If I was to make the donation through Torn I would receive a few cosmetics benefit which would likely carry a lower monetary value than the amount of tax I would have saved.

    Obviously, Torn itself doesn't benefit from these donations in any way, other than perhaps from a reputational perspective, however, I think people should still be aware that there are more benefits to be had from donating themselves, as I think we can all agree no one should pay tax on the money they intend to donate to charity.

    • CHINGADERA [2270005]
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    Posted on 22:17:39 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    finally [2060206]



    Sugartits representing TORN as a f**king retard asshole, sugartits parents must be proud they never made it out of committee to staff.

    MightyGoober [812478]

    Being shutdown for asking legitimate questions isn't right.

    The moment I started reading over it, i figured Torn benefits.

    In some way or form, Ched wouldn't do this unless it benefited his business. Whether it's a tax incentive, or something else.... there is something.

    If there is literally no business case for Ched, why add it?

    bogie [148747]

    Honestly that's just depressing that people genuinely cannot comprehend a genuine want to provide a means of help for people without a business incentive.


    There is nothing in it for Torn other than the knowledge that we can, as a community, better the world around us.
    Gonna call bullshit. Haven't seen ched do a single thing involving torn without benefitting himself in some way. It's ok, you're a paid rep, you gotta say that shit.
    Last edited by CHINGADERA on 22:18:01 - 22/11/22

    Imagine simping for a female, ever.

    #freehaha_noob

    • Pops [1025410]
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    Posted on 22:17:40 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Nova [1570883]

    He does have a point though.

    In the UK, if I donated £50K to the charity myself, I would receive tax relief in the form of gift aid, by grossing up the BRB by £62.5k (£50K/0.8), therefore increasing my basic rate band from £37.7k to £100.2k, receiving tax relief on the income donated as this income would be taxed at 20% rather than 40%.

    Or if I donate through a payroll giving scheme, the donation is directly deducted from my employment income, therefore once again I don't pay tax on that income.

    If I was to make the donation through Torn I would receive a few cosmetics benefit which would likely carry a lower monetary value than the amount of tax I would have saved.

    Obviously, Torn itself doesn't benefit from these donations in any way, other than perhaps from a reputational perspective, however, I think people should still be aware that there are more benefits to be had from donating themselves, as I think we can all agree no one should pay tax on the money they intend to donate to charity.
    why is this example someone donating 50k, im gonna give a fiver and call it day as are most people... lets not be daft here
    Last edited by Pops on 22:17:59 - 22/11/22

    • PimpChu [1284243]
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    Posted on 22:18:31 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    commenting here since the original thread is now locked.

    but f**k me, people will find anything to get worked up about.

    Im not a huge charity donator, but i am a big buyer of DP's, and i would love the idea to donate via torn. my only personal question would be what charities will be donated to, and if they can focus on the smaller charities which put the majority of their donations towards their causes, rather than administration.

    But i applaud ched and bogie for looking in to this. they did some great work with the war in the Ukraine, and it makes sense to look to expand on that, and do some more good in the world.

    dUHiqOv.gif

    • SpARkS42069 [2175802]
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    Posted on 22:19:25 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    bogie [148747]

    Intention or not it's exactly what you achieved through your misinformation...

    If you don't want to use such a system then don't use it. If you want to donate money to Torn to get benefits then you're always better off doing regular donator packs. The purpose of the charity centre would never be a "pay to win" system, as it would be largely cosmetic with some minor perks, that would no doubt be not quite as good as buying donator packs, but unique enough where there's some people who would be interested.

    This whole system is about Torn working alongside it's community to benefit the world as a whole, and provide an incentive for people to donate for charitable causes.

    The whole argument of "but I could claim this myself!!!" is a bit ridiculous in my view as if that's the case then go ahead and do that directly to the charity then? That's great! Win win! You get what you want and the charity, which is what we want to benefit here, rather than Torn in any way, gets support!

    But were you ever going to do that? Probably not... The whole point here is about giving some way where people would donate to charity and get something they might want in place of that, utilising the community as a whole to really make a larger difference for society.

    We have a great community here in Torn, and want what we've done here to help make the world better.

    Adrenalinas [1974447]

    I like the idea.
    Titles, different color names, and so on still have "some minor perks" mentioned there can be a kinda op like a book voucher (especially if you could get more than one) anyway savages made a mistake by telling this
    Torn will provide a range of in-game rewards which increase in usefulness and prestige the more you donate

    that kinda sounded like making torn p2w. I think if it would be described like Ched said

    All rewards would be cosmetic, or provide a very slight / minor advantage which is very limited.
    it would be much less resistance

    sugarvalves [1963573]

    You're right, that part was badly worded. I should've pointed out that the small number of rewards that are even slightly useful - if the community thinks we should introduce them at all - would only be for top-tier charitable donators who are throwing down absolutely obscene amounts.

    The OP is clearly a mouth-breathing disappointment who enjoys playing the villain, but I completely understand and agree with anyone who responded to the thread negatively due to the perception that we were suggesting a charity-based P2W format. That's not the intention. We're not Activision, and as far as I know, we're not introducing a Neymar NPC anytime soon. I think we've got the license for Eric Djemba-Djemba though.

    Anyway, I'll figure out a better way to word everything when we post this again, as our main aim is to find out what the community actually wants in return for donating - and of course, what you don't want.
    I'd pay for an Eric Djemba Djemba NPC. More so if his primary weapon is overhitting with a cross.
    • Nova [1570883]
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    Posted on 22:19:46 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Nova [1570883]

    He does have a point though.

    In the UK, if I donated £50K to the charity myself, I would receive tax relief in the form of gift aid, by grossing up the BRB by £62.5k (£50K/0.8), therefore increasing my basic rate band from £37.7k to £100.2k, receiving tax relief on the income donated as this income would be taxed at 20% rather than 40%.

    Or if I donate through a payroll giving scheme, the donation is directly deducted from my employment income, therefore once again I don't pay tax on that income.

    If I was to make the donation through Torn I would receive a few cosmetics benefit which would likely carry a lower monetary value than the amount of tax I would have saved.

    Obviously, Torn itself doesn't benefit from these donations in any way, other than perhaps from a reputational perspective, however, I think people should still be aware that there are more benefits to be had from donating themselves, as I think we can all agree no one should pay tax on the money they intend to donate to charity.

    Pops [1025410]

    why is this example someone donating 50k, im gonna give a fiver and call it day as are most people... lets not be daft here
    It was just to demonstrate the numbers.  The same applies to any monetary value.  You simply are better off donating directly.
    Last edited by Nova on 22:20:23 - 22/11/22

    • Beerstein [1322136]
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    Posted on 22:21:04 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Nova [1570883]

    He does have a point though.

    In the UK, if I donated £50K to the charity myself, I would receive tax relief in the form of gift aid, by grossing up the BRB by £62.5k (£50K/0.8), therefore increasing my basic rate band from £37.7k to £100.2k, receiving tax relief on the income donated as this income would be taxed at 20% rather than 40%.

    Or if I donate through a payroll giving scheme, the donation is directly deducted from my employment income, therefore once again I don't pay tax on that income.

    If I was to make the donation through Torn I would receive a few cosmetics benefit which would likely carry a lower monetary value than the amount of tax I would have saved.

    Obviously, Torn itself doesn't benefit from these donations in any way, other than perhaps from a reputational perspective, however, I think people should still be aware that there are more benefits to be had from donating themselves, as I think we can all agree no one should pay tax on the money they intend to donate to charity.

    Pops [1025410]

    why is this example someone donating 50k, im gonna give a fiver and call it day as are most people... lets not be daft here
    There's legitimate potential for donations of the size he mentioned. It may seem crazy but plenty are willing, just a matter of how many are in this game. But agreed most will probably be small donations that said a majorly of the total being from a minority of donations wouldn't be at all surprising. 

    As far as why, maybe cheds just a good dude and wants to help others and use his influence to get others to as well.

    Sure he could go all bezos but I don't think he's ever been about pocketing as much cash as possible.
    Last edited by Beerstein on 22:22:25 - 22/11/22

     

    • HerrSchmidt [2069746]
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    Posted on 22:21:05 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Nova [1570883]

    He does have a point though.

    In the UK, if I donated £50K to the charity myself, I would receive tax relief in the form of gift aid, by grossing up the BRB by £62.5k (£50K/0.8), therefore increasing my basic rate band from £37.7k to £100.2k, receiving tax relief on the income donated as this income would be taxed at 20% rather than 40%.

    Or if I donate through a payroll giving scheme, the donation is directly deducted from my employment income, therefore once again I don't pay tax on that income.

    If I was to make the donation through Torn I would receive a few cosmetics benefit which would likely carry a lower monetary value than the amount of tax I would have saved.

    Obviously, Torn itself doesn't benefit from these donations in any way, other than perhaps from a reputational perspective, however, I think people should still be aware that there are more benefits to be had from donating themselves, as I think we can all agree no one should pay tax on the money they intend to donate to charity.

    Pops [1025410]

    why is this example someone donating 50k, im gonna give a fiver and call it day as are most people... lets not be daft here
    Nova isn't used to dealing with plebs.  Easy mistake.

    But his point stands and isn't it easier for torn to be polite when responding rather than rage lol?

    The rage indicates a total lack of transparency. If ched et Al were purely philanthropic - anger has no place here.
    • JoeSkull [533524]
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    Posted on 22:21:33 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    The thing I'd like to see is a list of various charities and different causes. For instance, someone mentioned something for animals, whereas I'd like to see something that helps children or cancer research. I'd also like Torn to show the non-profit's overhead (I once saw a non-profit with 100% overhead).
    • Pops [1025410]
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    Posted on 22:22:05 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Nova [1570883]

    It was just to demonstrate the numbers. The same applies to any monetary value. You simply are better off donating directly.
    does it really though? when you buy a can of lucozade from the shops for 70p are you looking around for 4% cashback voucher and stacking multiple cashback credit cards so you can earn 1p?

    no? then likely if your giving a fiver, you aren't doing the same either.

    torn staff are gonna know the demographics on purchasers here, sure some whales are gonna exist but the average player is not a whale donating 50k

    • Nova [1570883]
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    Posted on 22:25:41 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Nova [1570883]

    It was just to demonstrate the numbers. The same applies to any monetary value. You simply are better off donating directly.

    Pops [1025410]

    does it really though? when you buy a can of lucozade from the shops for 70p are you looking around for 4% cashback voucher and stacking multiple cashback credit cards so you can earn 1p?

    no? then likely if your giving a fiver, you aren't doing the same either.

    torn staff are gonna know the demographics on purchasers here, sure some whales are gonna exist but the average player is not a whale donating 50k
    I've opened several bank accounts specifically to benefit from cash back on all purchases I make, so yes.

    I had 5% cash back on one card for an entire year.

    • Tarelli [1060371]
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    Posted on 22:26:23 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Tarelli [1060371]

    When I give to charity I don't do it to get money back...

    finally [2060206]

    But why not, if you can? Not like charity gets less, in fact you could donate more if you calculate the deductions of taxes in :) Win win to me :)

    Tarelli [1060371]

    I don't know if I can.

    Its not something I'd bother looking in to.

    I just give to causes when I see fit.

    finally [2060206]

    Sounds like the norm torn player, not giving a damn about their taxes, so cant blame you there! You do you!

    Tarelli [1060371]

    My wife is a accountant, why would I care about my taxes???

    finally [2060206]

    Clearly your wife is a shit accountant, sorry to tell you.
    What exactly are you basing that on?

    • Markland [1385260]
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    Posted on 22:30:02 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    bogie [148747]

    Intention or not it's exactly what you achieved through your misinformation...

    If you don't want to use such a system then don't use it. If you want to donate money to Torn to get benefits then you're always better off doing regular donator packs. The purpose of the charity centre would never be a "pay to win" system, as it would be largely cosmetic with some minor perks, that would no doubt be not quite as good as buying donator packs, but unique enough where there's some people who would be interested.

    This whole system is about Torn working alongside it's community to benefit the world as a whole, and provide an incentive for people to donate for charitable causes.

    The whole argument of "but I could claim this myself!!!" is a bit ridiculous in my view as if that's the case then go ahead and do that directly to the charity then? That's great! Win win! You get what you want and the charity, which is what we want to benefit here, rather than Torn in any way, gets support!

    But were you ever going to do that? Probably not... The whole point here is about giving some way where people would donate to charity and get something they might want in place of that, utilising the community as a whole to really make a larger difference for society.

    We have a great community here in Torn, and want what we've done here to help make the world better.

    Adrenalinas [1974447]

    I like the idea.
    Titles, different color names, and so on still have "some minor perks" mentioned there can be a kinda op like a book voucher (especially if you could get more than one) anyway savages made a mistake by telling this
    Torn will provide a range of in-game rewards which increase in usefulness and prestige the more you donate

    that kinda sounded like making torn p2w. I think if it would be described like Ched said

    All rewards would be cosmetic, or provide a very slight / minor advantage which is very limited.
    it would be much less resistance

    bogie [148747]

    Hitman titles for charitable donors.
    Count me in

    Where do I donate?

    f**k this Hired Gun shit
    https://profileimages.torn.com/4d653d49-8472-ec74-1385260.png
    • SpinDrift [2238383]
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    Posted on 22:32:36 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    I have to admit when I saw ''saltyvalves'' I thought it sounded like a UTI and wondered ''what on earth??''

    Imagine my disappointment to find it is about.....well.....this....
    • sugarvalves [1963573]
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    Posted on 22:34:34 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    finally [2060206]



    Sugartits representing TORN as a f**king retard asshole, sugartits parents must be proud they never made it out of committee to staff.

    MightyGoober [812478]

    Being shutdown for asking legitimate questions isn't right.

    The moment I started reading over it, i figured Torn benefits.

    In some way or form, Ched wouldn't do this unless it benefited his business. Whether it's a tax incentive, or something else.... there is something.

    If there is literally no business case for Ched, why add it?

    bogie [148747]

    Honestly that's just depressing that people genuinely cannot comprehend a genuine want to provide a means of help for people without a business incentive.


    There is nothing in it for Torn other than the knowledge that we can, as a community, better the world around us.

    MightyGoober [812478]

    First off, players being genuinely curious is being met with a large amount of hostility. If this does get released, you're going to need quite a big bullet proof Q&A page. We have questions, did you expect a mass amount of people to just blindly act like sheep?

    -

    Honestly, just let people donate directly to charity. Maybe a page with links out directly to their websites. You could list the countries where people get personal tax incentives (among other things), and your push could actually make people donate to causes, if that's all you want.


    If this is added to Torn, I'm going to feel like I'll have to drop $x amount of cash to "get a missed book", which already pisses me off because of the way the book chance is generated to an infinite loop of subscriber status. Not sure what I'm talking about?? clicky

    You're like Apple "fixing" problems they create.

    What if I don't want to donate to charity?
    The moment you say "well don't" ...

    ...


    ...

    You're offering services that you can't get anywhere else in the game. If I want to keep up, I'll have to. You listed way more than cosmetics in the rewards. I find some of those listed things OP.
    Stick to the colours and cosmetics.
    This isn't a fair assessment of what actually happened at all, and I think if you go back and read through the thread, you'll agree. 

    Genuine curiosity and questions are precisely what we wanted. Finally did not provide this. He suggested that the Charity Center was being set up to earn tax relief, refused to back down when called out on his incorrect interpretation of tax regulations, and ended by graciously editing his first post to admit he knew the sum total of f**k all about the situation, before admitting he was really only concerned about the lack of tax relief he himself would be able to claim.

    In doing this, Finally fulled derailed the thread, a thread that was posted specifically so we could discuss which rewards would be within the limits that the Torn community prefers. Not wanting charitable donations to affect gameplay at all, even for the most generous donators, is a perfectly legitimate view that we were and are still happy to discuss. Unfortunately, we didn't get to dig into any of this, because of one selfish, disingenuous, know-nothing attention seeker.

    And that's why I reacted angrily. I felt compelled to step in and stop this person because I know for a fact that what Ched's trying to do here is fundamentally good. We want to debate the ins and outs of this feature with the community to make sure it works for you all, hence why we set up the original thread. But if you think I'm going to respond politely when someone tries to make out that there are selfish motives behind this venture, you'll be unpleasantly surprised.
    • Beerstein [1322136]
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    Posted on 22:35:51 - 22/11/22 (1 year ago)
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    Another thing to consider on the perma sub front is Torn is still a tiny game. Look at the investor report, player numbers etc. PubG gets 50-100k new users daily, that's more than the entirety of Torns retention.

    I'm still of the thought that subscribers probably are the majority of donor pack purchases meaning keeping them in the game with a valuable like that, or at least coming back would actually increase profit and retention of valuable players.

     

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