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PrOnE2DiE

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Thread created on Thu Oct 17, 2013 13:03:24
Last replied to on Thu Oct 24, 2013 22:58:03
Saw a program on this and thought I'd see what the general TC mood is about the deportation of troubled and once troubled young men back to Cambodia after living there entire lives in America. A few links that you may find helpful.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Cambodians_from_the_United_States

www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/08/196100/cambodian-refugees-deported-for.html

Some here may say that it is injustice to the fullest extent of the word. While others may say they had their chance and they screwed it up so they deserve what they get.

Personally I would think the Government would look at each individual case as it comes to them but they don't.




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CowsGoMoo95
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Posted on Thu Oct 17, 2013 20:17:57
Government doesn't care about the people, because it's run by crooks and bankers. That's all you need to know for any political issue.
But yes, this is messed up. Borders are already stupid in the first place, but deporting Genocide victims? Idiotic.
To be fair though they are felons so they can't really blame anyone else.

Last Edited: Thu Oct 17, 2013 20:19:28
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GirlFriday

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Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2013 13:41:16
I see nothing wrong with this.

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Predator_Drone

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Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2013 14:10:11
No problem with this at all, they are only deporting ones convicted of an aggravated felony who hadnt become citizens, 1. they shouldnt break the law, these are people convicted of aggravated felonys not people who were following the law or had minor offences. 2. most of them had plenty enough time to become citizens. break the rules and you get sent packing.

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CatHead

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Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2013 14:49:10
I agree that it's lawful but I think it's a little cruel to be sending them back a decade after they were convicted. According to the article, many of them spent several years in prison then came out and built a life for themselves. You'd think it more logical to send them packing before putting them in the care of uncle Sam. The man who's quoted says he had no idea that he was gonna be deported (however, I don't know if it's true). You'd think that a decision like that should be made in a courtroom, really.

On the other hand, the article itself is bloody emotive. It's pretty much designed to pull at your heart strings. To describe 10 deportations a month as 'a flood' is a little heavy handed at best.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with deporting criminals that are not citizens- despite what they ran from originally, I do however think it's a bit shitty if they didn't know anything about not being citizens and putting them through prison, allowing them to build lives before tearing them away. That's a big if though. (ha)

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Predator_Drone

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Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2013 15:21:44
By CatHead [1581564]
I agree that it's lawful but I think it's a little cruel to be sending them back a decade after they were convicted. According to the article, many of them spent several years in prison then came out and built a life for themselves. You'd think it more logical to send them packing before putting them in the care of uncle Sam. The man who's quoted says he had no idea that he was gonna be deported (however, I don't know if it's true). You'd think that a decision like that should be made in a courtroom, really.

On the other hand, the article itself is bloody emotive. It's pretty much designed to pull at your heart strings. To describe 10 deportations a month as 'a flood' is a little heavy handed at best.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with deporting criminals that are not citizens- despite what they ran from originally, I do however think it's a bit shitty if they didn't know anything about not being citizens and putting them through prison, allowing them to build lives before tearing them away. That's a big if though. (ha)


If any non citizen commits a feloby that warrants jail time they always serve the time before deportation.

Last Edited: Sat Oct 19, 2013 15:24:50
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CatHead

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Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2013 15:54:38
Is that the rule everywhere?

It should still be said "You are sentenced to 10 years and you're going to be deported."

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Predator_Drone

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Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2013 16:25:36
By CatHead [1581564]
Is that the rule everywhere?

It should still be said "You are sentenced to 10 years and you're going to be deported."


yes in the united states it is. Usually they do say something to that effect but if they dont then deportation shouldnt be an option then but i dont know the facts on every case but in general if its a felony and your not a citizen then you serve your time and are then deported but as with any judicial system there is error and oversights.

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Tolshortte

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Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2013 05:18:40
the conservatives are currently seeking out and deporting any and all illegal immigrants convicted of a felony, including those who voted when they weren't legally able to since that too is a felony.

it is a move to diminish democratic support. expect to hear about many more cases like this, and how unfair the democrats think it is. Hence, the democrats growing push for immigration reform as they try and protect future votes.

since these individuals are documented and eligible for deportation they have little defense for the storm that is coming.



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JSnows

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Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2013 08:04:22
in general i don't see a problem ... guests shouldn't abuse the hostīs hospitality or they might just stop being welcome

however one specific issue caught my attention ... these deportations became possible due to a law approved in 1996 but one of the examples given in the article says:
We have a 72-year-old grandfather here. He hit his son for joining a gang in 1986,


assuming this is true, this would mean that this deportation was based on an event from 1986, so isn't this a retroactive application of the law? and aren't retroactive laws forbidden in the US?

Last Edited: Sun Oct 20, 2013 08:05:16
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0ffline
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Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2013 08:34:15
By JSnows [14906]
in general i don't see a problem ... guests shouldn't abuse the hostīs hospitality or they might just stop being welcome

however one specific issue caught my attention ... these deportations became possible due to a law approved in 1996 but one of the examples given in the article says:
We have a 72-year-old grandfather here. He hit his son for joining a gang in 1986,


assuming this is true, this would mean that this deportation was based on an event from 1986, so isn't this a retroactive application of the law? and aren't retroactive laws forbidden in the US?


The application of law, with regards to protected rights, in the US is heavily impacted by citizenship.

If you aren't a legal citizen then you are a resident alien.

You aren't protected by the constitution if you aren't a citizen.


It's like that in almost all western countries.

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PrOnE2DiE

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Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:55:08

By JSnows [14906]
in general i don't see a problem ... guests shouldn't abuse the hostīs hospitality or they might just stop being welcome

however one specific issue caught my attention ... these deportations became possible due to a law approved in 1996 but one of the examples given in the article says:
We have a 72-year-old grandfather here. He hit his son for joining a gang in 1986,


assuming this is true, this would mean that this deportation was based on an event from 1986, so isn't this a retroactive application of the law? and aren't retroactive laws forbidden in the US?



And there are many cases like this. 10 or more year old cases that are being reviewed and then action taken. Don't get me wrong here I do not have a problem with the deportation of people that are not Citizens and are felon's. But to wait 10-20 years after the fact is a bit much I would think. I guess its kinda like the death sentence appeals and such keep things going for a few years.






Last Edited: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:56:25
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JSnows

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Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2013 22:38:08
By 0ffline [1372001]
By JSnows [14906]
in general i don't see a problem ... guests shouldn't abuse the hostīs hospitality or they might just stop being welcome

however one specific issue caught my attention ... these deportations became possible due to a law approved in 1996 but one of the examples given in the article says:
We have a 72-year-old grandfather here. He hit his son for joining a gang in 1986,


assuming this is true, this would mean that this deportation was based on an event from 1986, so isn't this a retroactive application of the law? and aren't retroactive laws forbidden in the US?


The application of law, with regards to protected rights, in the US is heavily impacted by citizenship.

If you aren't a legal citizen then you are a resident alien.

You aren't protected by the constitution if you aren't a citizen.

It's like that in almost all western countries.


so much for "Equal justice under law"

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BuckWyld

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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 02:39:05
Don't really know where i stand on this. We have a huge immigration problem as is. & i generally feel bad for these people, because everyone is entitled to a better life, so long as there willing to work for it. But the harsh reality of that is. If we keep opening our borders like flood gates, there's going to be nothing left for those that were Born natural citizens.

if someone did a crime & did their time. & are generally shown a strong interest in becoming a better person. I can't fault anybody for that. I still feel persecuted for a lot of stuff i did 17 to 20 yrs ago. When in fact im nothing like the person who did that stupid shit all them yrs. ago.

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AlphaRatsNest
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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 05:25:58
I think they should set it up so they can fight each other in the USA and we could make a reality tv show about it and it would be like a sport.

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BuckWyld

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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 06:04:03
By AlphaRatsNest [1786425]
I think they should set it up so they can fight each other in the USA and we could make a reality tv show about it and it would be like a sport.


Don't be so sure that wasn't a discussion. Im sure as long as they Gov. could collect all the proceeds from it, & some how wrap a nice lil "humane" label to the whole idea. It's entirely possible.

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JSnows

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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 07:36:07
By BuckWyld [1009930]
If we keep opening our borders like flood gates, there's going to be nothing left for those that were Born natural citizens.


i'm sure native americans sympathise with your plight
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sorry ... it was too good to miss

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BuckWyld

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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 08:01:51
all good man. Im part Cherokee. Yes i realize how much i just put my foot in mouth.

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Seba_Nile

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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 19:50:46
This is why 'Western Democracy' is never the answer

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dunmugmeh

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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2013 20:02:57
Foreign criminals should be deported as soon as they are realeased from prison. Shame my country england is very bad at getting that done. Immigration isnt a right its a privelege any country in its right mind would kick out foreign criminals.

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PrOnE2DiE

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 01:38:19
By dunmugmeh [538353]
Foreign criminals should be deported as soon as they are realeased from prison. Shame my country england is very bad at getting that done. Immigration isnt a right its a privelege any country in its right mind would kick out foreign criminals.



Why should they even be locked up in the US? Why should the citizens of any country have to support criminals for any number of years? Why not just deport them as soon as they are convicted? Makes more sense to me just to get rid of them right then and there.


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Tolshortte

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 01:48:33
By PrOnE2DiE [692571]
By dunmugmeh [538353]
Foreign criminals should be deported as soon as they are realeased from prison. Shame my country england is very bad at getting that done. Immigration isnt a right its a privelege any country in its right mind would kick out foreign criminals.



Why should they even be locked up in the US? Why should the citizens of any country have to support criminals for any number of years? Why not just deport them as soon as they are convicted? Makes more sense to me just to get rid of them right then and there.


if they aren't documented then what keep them out once released? I think that's why they lock them up. I think their stay should be hard labor and as uncomfortable as possible within the confines of the law.

I am all for giving immigrants the ability to become citizens and provide a new life for themselves. but for those who choose to bypass that system need to be treated like foreign invaders.



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PrOnE2DiE

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 03:41:54
By Tolshortte [648554]
By PrOnE2DiE [692571]
By dunmugmeh [538353]
Foreign criminals should be deported as soon as they are realeased from prison. Shame my country england is very bad at getting that done. Immigration isnt a right its a privelege any country in its right mind would kick out foreign criminals.



Why should they even be locked up in the US? Why should the citizens of any country have to support criminals for any number of years? Why not just deport them as soon as they are convicted? Makes more sense to me just to get rid of them right then and there.


if they aren't documented then what keep them out once released? I think that's why they lock them up. I think their stay should be hard labor and as uncomfortable as possible within the confines of the law.

I am all for giving immigrants the ability to become citizens and provide a new life for themselves. but for those who choose to bypass that system need to be treated like foreign invaders.


What keeps them out now? Maybe the 6 thousand miles they are from the west cost is a major barrier to overcome I would think. Keeping a person in jail feeding them providing medical care and housing for them for any number of years would be much more expensive then putting them on a watch list so they wont return may work? I'm sure they keep records of who is being deported in case they return anyway right? Just deporting them right after conviction is far more justifiable then waiting until they have families and have changed there criminal ways.



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Tolshortte

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 05:24:39
By PrOnE2DiE [692571]
By Tolshortte [648554]
By PrOnE2DiE [692571]
By dunmugmeh [538353]
Foreign criminals should be deported as soon as they are realeased from prison. Shame my country england is very bad at getting that done. Immigration isnt a right its a privelege any country in its right mind would kick out foreign criminals.



Why should they even be locked up in the US? Why should the citizens of any country have to support criminals for any number of years? Why not just deport them as soon as they are convicted? Makes more sense to me just to get rid of them right then and there.


if they aren't documented then what keep them out once released? I think that's why they lock them up. I think their stay should be hard labor and as uncomfortable as possible within the confines of the law.

I am all for giving immigrants the ability to become citizens and provide a new life for themselves. but for those who choose to bypass that system need to be treated like foreign invaders.


What keeps them out now? Maybe the 6 thousand miles they are from the west cost is a major barrier to overcome I would think. Keeping a person in jail feeding them providing medical care and housing for them for any number of years would be much more expensive then putting them on a watch list so they wont return may work? I'm sure they keep records of who is being deported in case they return anyway right? Just deporting them right after conviction is far more justifiable then waiting until they have families and have changed there criminal ways.



well I think immigration laws would have to be the same to all, and a lot are not 6 thousand miles away. and I addressed why this is happening now earlier in the thread. and while I agree its a crappy thing to do to someone the reality is it should have been done sooner. so the argument could be made that they should be thankful for the time they had here.

I agree its messed up they waited so long to act on this, and perhaps they were never going to. but they are now and did. but I don't really feel bad for an illegal immigrant who shouldn't have been here to start with who got convicted of a felony for being treated 'poorly'. I understand your point completely, people change, better themselves, grow up etc. and to have the past bite you in the ass 20 years later sucks. but the blame rests solely on the illegals committing crimes imo. don't sneak in and break the law and the problem would have been avoided.



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PrOnE2DiE

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 13:55:33
By Tolshortte [648554]
By PrOnE2DiE [692571]
By Tolshortte [648554]
By PrOnE2DiE [692571]
By dunmugmeh [538353]
Foreign criminals should be deported as soon as they are realeased from prison. Shame my country england is very bad at getting that done. Immigration isnt a right its a privelege any country in its right mind would kick out foreign criminals.



Why should they even be locked up in the US? Why should the citizens of any country have to support criminals for any number of years? Why not just deport them as soon as they are convicted? Makes more sense to me just to get rid of them right then and there.


if they aren't documented then what keep them out once released? I think that's why they lock them up. I think their stay should be hard labor and as uncomfortable as possible within the confines of the law.

I am all for giving immigrants the ability to become citizens and provide a new life for themselves. but for those who choose to bypass that system need to be treated like foreign invaders.


What keeps them out now? Maybe the 6 thousand miles they are from the west cost is a major barrier to overcome I would think. Keeping a person in jail feeding them providing medical care and housing for them for any number of years would be much more expensive then putting them on a watch list so they wont return may work? I'm sure they keep records of who is being deported in case they return anyway right? Just deporting them right after conviction is far more justifiable then waiting until they have families and have changed there criminal ways.



well I think immigration laws would have to be the same to all, and a lot are not 6 thousand miles away. and I addressed why this is happening now earlier in the thread. and while I agree its a crappy thing to do to someone the reality is it should have been done sooner. so the argument could be made that they should be thankful for the time they had here.

I agree its messed up they waited so long to act on this, and perhaps they were never going to. but they are now and did. but I don't really feel bad for an illegal immigrant who shouldn't have been here to start with who got convicted of a felony for being treated 'poorly'. I understand your point completely, people change, better themselves, grow up etc. and to have the past bite you in the ass 20 years later sucks. but the blame rests solely on the illegals committing crimes imo. don't sneak in and break the law and the problem would have been avoided.



Agreed It is there own fault for breaking the laws and they cannot blame anyone but themselves for winding up in a mud hut in Cambodia. Its also there and there parents fault for not becoming citizens in the first place. Seems it would have been the first thing they tried to do upon arrival to the US.

These people had every opportunity in the world to live in a completely modern country and just shat it away. The only thing I do not understand is the waiting 10-20 years to act seems like a tragedy for a husband/father to be deported leaving children behind with no means of support no father figure in there life.



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55TARGENERAL

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 17:47:18
I have plenty friends that been deported!

but they got caught doing dumb shit, its really no1 fault but there's tbh.




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LimeTree

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Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2013 18:00:35
By CowsGoMoo95 [1727658]
Government doesn't care about the people, because it's run by crooks and bankers. That's all you need to know for any political issue.
But yes, this is messed up. Borders are already stupid in the first place, but deporting Genocide victims? Idiotic.
To be fair though they are felons so they can't really blame anyone else.


Perhaps one could blame the system and social conditions for leading them to crime, though.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2013 19:22:07
By LimeTree [1321200]
By CowsGoMoo95 [1727658]
Government doesn't care about the people, because it's run by crooks and bankers. That's all you need to know for any political issue.
But yes, this is messed up. Borders are already stupid in the first place, but deporting Genocide victims? Idiotic.
To be fair though they are felons so they can't really blame anyone else.


Perhaps one could blame the system and social conditions for leading them to crime, though.


Balls.
It is an individual's decision to deviate from absolute obedience and complete submission to Law and Order.

By making his own choices, the individual takes charge of his own fate.
He did not obey an order to break a window,he did it himself.
With exercing willpower comes responsibility.



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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2013 20:02:18
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By LimeTree [1321200]
By CowsGoMoo95 [1727658]
Government doesn't care about the people, because it's run by crooks and bankers. That's all you need to know for any political issue.
But yes, this is messed up. Borders are already stupid in the first place, but deporting Genocide victims? Idiotic.
To be fair though they are felons so they can't really blame anyone else.


Perhaps one could blame the system and social conditions for leading them to crime, though.


Balls.
It is an individual's decision to deviate from absolute obedience and complete submission to Law and Order.

By making his own choices, the individual takes charge of his own fate.
He did not obey an order to break a window,he did it himself.
With exercing willpower comes responsibility.



While I would consider it good form to submit to the rule of law and order while living in a civil society where one has reasonable expectations of reciprocal adherence by those given the public trust, there must be a necessary distinction drawn between obedience to just law, and obedience to any coerced laws and governance... the Warsaw Ghettos come to mind as an example of the latter.

Having said that, any peoples who willingly transplant themselves into a society, must by necessity agree to live by the laws of the land unto which them have themselves moved by free will.

"When in Rome..."

Last Edited: Thu Oct 24, 2013 20:03:15
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LimeTree

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Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2013 20:40:44
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By LimeTree [1321200]
By CowsGoMoo95 [1727658]
Government doesn't care about the people, because it's run by crooks and bankers. That's all you need to know for any political issue.
But yes, this is messed up. Borders are already stupid in the first place, but deporting Genocide victims? Idiotic.
To be fair though they are felons so they can't really blame anyone else.


Perhaps one could blame the system and social conditions for leading them to crime, though.


Balls.
It is an individual's decision to deviate from absolute obedience and complete submission to Law and Order.

By making his own choices, the individual takes charge of his own fate.
He did not obey an order to break a window,he did it himself.
With exercing willpower comes responsibility.



So long as one man has everything and one man has nothing, there shall always be crime. Yes ofc, every individual makes their owns decisions, but you must acknowledge what leads them to them.
Fight the root of the problem, not the symptoms, or you'll get nowhere.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2013 20:57:20
By LimeTree [1321200]
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By LimeTree [1321200]
By CowsGoMoo95 [1727658]
Government doesn't care about the people, because it's run by crooks and bankers. That's all you need to know for any political issue.
But yes, this is messed up. Borders are already stupid in the first place, but deporting Genocide victims? Idiotic.
To be fair though they are felons so they can't really blame anyone else.


Perhaps one could blame the system and social conditions for leading them to crime, though.


Balls.
It is an individual's decision to deviate from absolute obedience and complete submission to Law and Order.

By making his own choices, the individual takes charge of his own fate.
He did not obey an order to break a window,he did it himself.
With exercing willpower comes responsibility.



So long as one man has everything and one man has nothing, there shall always be crime. Yes ofc, every individual makes their owns decisions, but you must acknowledge what leads them to them.
Fight the root of the problem, not the symptoms, or you'll get nowhere.


Balls. Crime does not depend on property or such a thing. Put two multi-billionaires in the same room.
If one of them shoots the other, that has nothing to do with one being very rich and the other being very poor, yet a crime took place.

Crime occurs when insufficient care is taken to order society along very strict hierarchical and authoritarian lines, institute pervasive surveyance, backed up a very strict regime of punishments.

You can observe the veracity of this by leaving a class of schoolchildren unsupervised.
Chaos ensues.

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