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Ali_Bees

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Thread created on Sun Jun 16, 2013 03:27:36
Last replied to on Mon Jun 17, 2013 23:06:23
This happened a few years ago but the center had managed to have the video suppressed till now...

It has finally come to trial and a judge ruled it be shown to the jury.

*Disclaimer* this video is very disturbing and upsetting.

http:;//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssc8mUqUEqE

I hope this place get's shut down and none of the so called "educators" are allowed near any child ever again, especially the vulnerable ones in our society.

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:07:17
Can you explain what is happening at 2:;11?

I don't see him being shocked or anything in that part, is he just screaming like a maniac out of nowhere before they "treat" him?

Understandable if they've got him so completely wacked with fear of being tortured, but just wanted to see if I overlooked something

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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:15:50
They had him physically restrained, the whole thing came about as he refused to remove his sweater, which as he is autistic can be a soothing thing for him to have on.

Whether you are on the spectrum or not being physically restrained and tied down (;plus he had already been shocked prior to this, this video is just a small portion of the 31 shocks he received and from the audio was number 16 or 17); will make you scream for help.

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:17:47
At the point he started screaming at 2:;11 he wasn't being restrained, that was when he wouldn't take his jacket off.

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tie_dyed1

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:17:54
unfortunately, disabled children and adults get tortured and killed more often than people think. Our Courts in the US are way to lenient on abusers.

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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:22:59
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
At the point he started screaming at 2:;;11 he wasn';t being restrained, that was when he wouldn';t take his jacket off.


From memory he was being touched - which is a big no no with kids on the spectrum as unsolicited touch tends to provoke behaviours.

I am unable to watch it again as having a child with an ASD I am disgusted and heartbroken when I see this.

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:37:51
By NawtyAli [1445620]
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
At the point he started screaming at 2:;11 he wasn't being restrained, that was when he wouldn't take his jacket off.


From memory he was being touched - which is a big no no with kids on the spectrum as unsolicited touch tends to provoke behaviours.

I am unable to watch it again as having a child with an ASD I am disgusted and heartbroken when I see this.


I watched that part 20 times and the guy's hand is hovering nearby and the kid starts screaming worse than when he was being restrained and possibly shocked.

I think it's horrible what they did and we 1000%; need to stop that from happening. Shock therapy is barbaric and unnecessary. And the idea of trying to shock the autism out of someone is deplorable, it doesn't matter whether it could technically work we are human beings not lab rats, and hell its wrong to do that on lab rats.

But if they were disciplining him for his screaming display then the news shouldn't present it that they were disciplining him for not taking his coat off (;;the mother's statement called it a coat);;.

My family owns and runs a daycare that deals primarily in trouble children. I put in 24 volunteer hours a week at, and we very successfully employ time-out. Nobody so much as gets spanked and we have amazing results that all the violent and impatient parents of the children cannot hope to match.
I hesitate to say but I'd have put him in timeout for his display. And that fu**ed up shock thing is their fu**ed up version of time out. They should be more patient and clearly they shouldn't shock the children.

The video is good to bring about change.
Senator Brian A. Joyce filed several amendments to further ban the abusive practice of administering aversives, or painful electric skin shocks, to disabled children at the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton back in May.

Last Edited: Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:51:27
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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:47:07
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
By NawtyAli [1445620]
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
At the point he started screaming at 2:;;;;11 he wasn';;;t being restrained, that was when he wouldn';;;t take his jacket off.


From memory he was being touched - which is a big no no with kids on the spectrum as unsolicited touch tends to provoke behaviours.

I am unable to watch it again as having a child with an ASD I am disgusted and heartbroken when I see this.


I watched that part 20 times and the guy's hand is hovering nearby and the kid starts screaming worse than when he was being restrained and possibly shocked.

I think it';s horrible what they did and we 1000%;; need to stop that from happening. Shock therapy is barbaric and unnecessary. And the idea of trying to shock the autism out of someone is deplorable, it doesn';t matter whether it could technically work we are human beings not lab rats, and hell its wrong to do that on lab rats.

But if they were disciplining him for his screaming display then the news shouldn't present it that they were disciplining him for not taking his coat off (;the mother';s statement called it a coat);.

My family owns and runs a daycare that deals primarily in trouble children. I put in 24 volunteer hours a week at, and we very successfully employ time-out. Nobody so much as gets spanked and we have amazing results that all the violent and impatient parents of the children cannot hope to match.
I hesitate to say but I'd have put him in timeout for his display. And that fu**ed up shock thing is their fu**ed up version of time out. They should be more patient and clearly they shouldn't shock the children.

The video is good to bring about change, I would just hope that we'd be able to bring about the needed change without the media making it about taking his jacket off.


With my own child I know of a worker at vacation care who is well known by him to have attempted to pick him up one day, this resulted in a physically violent outburst and meltdown by him, he shies away from people he even those he knows coming close unless he initiates the contact.

The taking off of the coat/jacket (;I used that word being aussie); is what precipitated the whole incident. IMO if the workers had not pushed the issue of removing the coat then the meltdown would of been avoided and the resultant shock therapy not happened (;well in this case anyway);. Whose to say how many other children had received this whilst in their care...

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tie_dyed1

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 05:55:06
We all learn better when we are taught what is expected of us. When appropriate behavior is reinforced. If his screaming was a behavior targetted in his plan, the plan should identify what appropriate behaviors they are encouraging and how they reinforce those competing/appropriate behaviors. "Aversion Therapy" as the attorney called it is BS. It does not work. It may show short term results, the child may not exhibit the behavior in the presence of the aversive stimuli, but without that stimuli present (;the shocking device or the person shocking); the child will be more likely to exhibit the behavior. Even Skinner said Aversion is stupid. It is wrong, it is illegal. It should have never happened.

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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:03:56
This site contains some further information about the practices employed at this center...

http:;//www.autistichoya.com/p/judge-rotenberg-center-resources.html

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:05:11
I've read every article there is about it, many other children did receive shocks, and for smaller things than a melt-down. Thats their method.

So would you say it would be unreasonable and ineffective for me to put him in time out for his meltdown? Or just unreasonable? Or neither?

The key is to be consistent. I don't have a special needs child myself, so I am not certain how'd I'd play it out myself as a parent, but for a normal child we would absolutely need to put someone in timeout for the meltdown. Of which they have many, being children.

If you can't discipline a child for fear of a meltdown they have you held hostage and you lose your effectiveness completely. So of course you'd have to discipline even special needs children, though I don't myself have experience with that. I'll ask my parents (;I'm 31 but I've helped their for 15 years);.

I've yet to see a trouble child, even ones kicked out of a dozen schools and daycares, that didn't improve massively under our timeout usage.

Last Edited: Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:09:11
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Bueno_Excelente

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:14:06

Whose to say how many other children had received this whilst in their care...


Evidently, quite a few.

There are several articles online concerning the school. The director was a B.F. Skinner disciple & was attempting operant conditioning on the kids. They were walking around with electroshock devices that could be triggered remotely whenever they did anything "wrong".

Someone must have been sleeping in class when they covered the Milgram experiment.


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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:16:08
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
I've read every article there is about it, many other children did receive shocks, and for smaller things than a melt-down. Thats their method.

So would you say it would be unreasonable and ineffective for me to put him in time out for his meltdown? Or just unreasonable? Or neither?

The key is to be consistent. I don't have a special needs child myself, so I am not certain how'd I'd play it out myself as a parent, but for a normal child we would absolutely need to put someone in timeout for the meltdown. Of which they have many, being children.

If you can't discipline a child for fear of a meltdown they have you held hostage and you lose your effectiveness completely. So of course you'd have to discipline even special needs children, though I don't myself have experience with that. I'll ask my parents (;I'm 31 but I've helped their for 15 years);.

I've yet to see a trouble child, even ones kicked out of a dozen schools and daycares, that didn't improve massively under our timeout usage.


NT kids don't have meltdown's they have tantrums, bit of a difference as their tantrum is an attention seeking behavior in itself. A meltdown isn't about attention seeking, it occurs when the child cannot process what is happening either internally/externally or both, they won't be looking to see if someone is watching and in fact take little notice of what is happening around them. Relocating them to a quiet area with little to no stimuli +/- any other number of sensory tools such as a weighted blanket/vest, wrapping them tightly, brushing or deep pressure are much more effective means of bringing an ASD child out of a meltdown, having them work through the trigger and how they could of handled the situation after is much more effective as a teaching tool and learning what is appropriate behavior.

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:26:57
The real world is not so black and white as that. Children are complicated.

Meltdowns are definitely not restricted to just ASD children.
Attention is not the only factor for NT children.

You are mistaken if you feel that is the case, as are the websites you are quoting.

That may be a keyword that you use, but it was in use far before it was taken for use in autistic discussion, and it applies to more than just people with autism.

Last Edited: Sun Jun 16, 2013 06:58:10
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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 07:03:22
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
The real world is not so black and white as that. Children are complicated.

Meltdowns are definitely not restricted to just ASD children.
Attention is not the only factor for NT children.

You are mistaken if you feel that is the case, as are the websites you are quoting.

That may be a keyword that you use, but it was in use far before it was taken for use in autistic discussion, and it applies to more than just people with autism.


In regards to ASD kids I am not quoting any websites, it is however based upon my own personal experience and upon those of thousands of other parents of ASD kids and those with ASD's in support groups. And no they aren't completely restricted to ASD children however the greater proportion of NT children are having a tantrum and that is why the time out works for them as they are not gaining any attention and the behavior ceases.

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Jenocide

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 07:10:42
f**king disgraceful to treat any human being like that let alone a kid, I weep for humanity at times

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tie_dyed1

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 08:16:04
By Bueno_Excelente [34014]

Whose to say how many other children had received this whilst in their care...


Evidently, quite a few.

There are several articles online concerning the school. The director was a B.F. Skinner disciple & was attempting operant conditioning on the kids. They were walking around with electroshock devices that could be triggered remotely whenever they did anything ";wrong";.

Someone must have been sleeping in class when they covered the Milgram experiment.


A Skinner disciple wouldn't torture children.



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Bueno_Excelente

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Posted on Sun Jun 16, 2013 23:20:51

By tie_dyed1 [75049]
By Bueno_Excelente [34014]

Whose to say how many other children had received this whilst in their care...


Evidently, quite a few.

There are several articles online concerning the school. The director was a B.F. Skinner disciple & was attempting operant conditioning on the kids. They were walking around with electroshock devices that could be triggered remotely whenever they did anything ";;wrong";;.

Someone must have been sleeping in class when they covered the Milgram experiment.


A Skinner disciple wouldn';t torture children.



The Judge Rosenberg Center:;

...criminal charges were brought against psychologist Matthew Israel, who founded the center almost 40 years ago in California when it was known then as the Behavior Research Institute (;BRI);.

According to Israel, the centers philosophy is based on the work of renowned behaviorist B.F. Skinner. In the 1950s, Israel was a student of Skinners at Harvard University.


Evidently, this one did.


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CravenTHC

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 00:16:29
That was something else. Have they said if anything would be done in civil court or otherwise to the center. Are they liable for the adverse affects that will probably include PTSD?

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Bueno_Excelente

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 01:18:44

By CravenTHC [1569996]
That was something else.


He was charged over destroying video tapes documenting the use of electro-shock and pled out by agreeing to resign.

Getting someone in the medical profession charged with torture in the United States is next to impossible, despite the rich and colourful history.


Last Edited: Mon Jun 17, 2013 04:46:57
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tie_dyed1

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 01:23:54
Sitting in a class taught by Dr. Skinner or saying practises are based on his teachings does not mean they practise what Skinner taught.



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Bueno_Excelente

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 02:07:26

By tie_dyed1 [75049]
Sitting in a class taught by Dr. Skinner or saying practises are based on his teachings does not mean they practise what Skinner taught.



Is there some other professor who he did his under-graduate, graduate, and post-graduate work under, and who was also largely responsible for electro-shock aversion as a means of operant conditioning? When he was referring to his social design as "Walden Three", I suppose that was just a wacky reference to Whitman [edit - sorry, Thoreau] rather than Skinner's book Walden Two?

Maybe this all just sprang fully-formed from the head of Zeus?


Last Edited: Mon Jun 17, 2013 04:31:03
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tie_dyed1

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 02:50:19
Apparrently he never read Walden Two. If he had, he would know that Skinner believed "electro-shock aversion" was wrong and it didn't work.

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Bueno_Excelente

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 03:42:50

That would be an interesting trick, considering Walden Two is a fictional work about a utopian society and not about the specifics of his experiments.

And I'm sure the kids in Chapter 14 will be happy to know it's OK to eat those lollipops now.


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Beerstein

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 04:26:53
I heard someone say lollipops, did someone say lollipops?

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Macabre

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 05:07:25
That was upsetting to watch. :;/

Interested in having a signature at very cheap price. PM me if you are able to help.
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Ali_Bees

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 05:18:23
By Necropsy [920743]
That was upsetting to watch. :;;/


I did warn in the OP

By NawtyAli [1445620]
*Disclaimer* this video is very disturbing and upsetting.


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Spurtung

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Posted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 23:06:23
did anyone else find Waldo in that video?

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