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Regret

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Posted on Fri May 24, 2013 11:11:41
By Stuie123 [867397]
By Regret [1718783]
By Shining_Armour [1704404]
At the point of conception all life is even
At the point of birth all life is even
From there on in though, no its not.


Pretty much sums it up.


Not in the UK.

At birth you can, potentially, become anything you want in life, except for king/queen. Unless, of course, you are born into the monarchy.


That's true.
- Didn't think of that.

x)

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I cant drown my demons, they know how to swim.
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri May 24, 2013 12:20:21
Thank God for Blighty.

But realistically, not being born in the Royalty is not the only disqualification-to-all.

A child born of two rather average-IQ'd parents is not much of a prospect for a Nobel Prize in Physics.

Nature > Nurture.







Last Edited: Fri May 24, 2013 12:20:48
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MySteRioN

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 08:27:18
lives are absolutely not equal. you can see few people who have lots of money and power and lots of people who have nothing




"I can't die."
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Gogs247

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 19:58:09
By Cathead [1581564]


I don't believe any of it is just, but just look at murders to see if all life is equal. There would be a big difference between a sentence dished out for someone who murdered a homeless man and someone who murdered the queen.


Actually no. There is only one sentence possible in the UK for murder and that is life imprisonment. There can be no difference in law on the punishment - ie he killed the Queen so we will give him two life sentences!!!

Just saying


When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains, an' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Soldier of the Queen!
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_I_

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 20:18:20
By Gogs247 [1531870]
By Cathead [1581564]


I don't believe any of it is just, but just look at murders to see if all life is equal. There would be a big difference between a sentence dished out for someone who murdered a homeless man and someone who murdered the queen.


Actually no. There is only one sentence possible in the UK for murder and that is life imprisonment. There can be no difference in law on the punishment - ie he killed the Queen so we will give him two life sentences!!!

Just saying


Actually, not true. The sentence is classed as life, but the tariff (years in prison) is given by the judge, and is usually set at 15, 25 or 30 years. Very occasionally, a 'whole life' tariff is given, but this is very rare.


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justthejobby

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 21:09:56
...going back to the original question.

Define life...(Spurty you 'ol dog, got the point right there)

With a big tar brush question like that then the answer will always be 'no'. Not much of an argument to be had really.





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CravenTHC

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 21:10:22
All people are equal. In that we're all made of the same ingredients.

It is our actions that make us unequal. Some actions are completely reprehensible, and are judged by the legal system. Other actions are benign, and are not grounds for prosecution or judgment. Even other actions are in a gray area where "moral" people feel that they are worthy to pass judgment. Sometimes those actions are outside of the law, sometimes the dilemma is a moral one.

At the beginning of the day we all, hopefully, put pants on one leg at a time, and at the end of the day we all take them off again. We're all pink on the inside, and we all have the same basic necessary needs to maintain life.

Last Edited: Mon May 27, 2013 21:12:37
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 21:32:36
Yet the very material commonality that you offer - that we all are made of flesh and blood - is exactly that thing that does not allow me to assign a POSITIVE value on any human life at all.

To what extent is the life of say, Captain John Brown, of the same worth of say, Richard Heydrich or Adolf Eichmann?
I would argue to the extent that the life of a human is of no more worth than the life of hyena.

But it is in the content of our character that the value of human being - and by extension his life - can be found. Not mere moral judgement ( take that as a yardstick and pretty soon the most cowardly finger-wagger becomes a man of great of worth! ), but in our actions.

I will go further than that.

The value of human life is equal to that what he or she would sacrifice it for - undauntedly and galantly, in the most disinterested manner. Not in how we cling on to it - but rather in how we let go of it.

Last Edited: Mon May 27, 2013 21:33:06
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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 22:01:44
By Gogs247 [1531870]
By Cathead [1581564]


I don't believe any of it is just, but just look at murders to see if all life is equal. There would be a big difference between a sentence dished out for someone who murdered a homeless man and someone who murdered the queen.


Actually no. There is only one sentence possible in the UK for murder and that is life imprisonment. There can be no difference in law on the punishment - ie he killed the Queen so we will give him two life sentences!!!

Just saying


Don't forget to factor in the good behavior too.


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Gogs247

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 22:04:43
By _I_ [575607]
By Gogs247 [1531870]
By Cathead [1581564]


I don't believe any of it is just, but just look at murders to see if all life is equal. There would be a big difference between a sentence dished out for someone who murdered a homeless man and someone who murdered the queen.


Actually no. There is only one sentence possible in the UK for murder and that is life imprisonment. There can be no difference in law on the punishment - ie he killed the Queen so we will give him two life sentences!!!

Just saying


Actually, not true. The sentence is classed as life, but the tariff (years in prison) is given by the judge, and is usually set at 15, 25 or 30 years. Very occasionally, a 'whole life' tariff is given, but this is very rare.


I agree, the tariff may differ but the sentence is the same. This is one of the oddities of English law and one which needs updating along the lines of the system adopted in the USA for homicides.



When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains, an' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Soldier of the Queen!
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CravenTHC

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Posted on Mon May 27, 2013 23:54:28
By DarthBrogo [21801]
Yet the very material commonality that you offer - that we all are made of flesh and blood - is exactly that thing that does not allow me to assign a POSITIVE value on any human life at all.

To what extent is the life of say, Captain John Brown, of the same worth of say, Richard Heydrich or Adolf Eichmann?
I would argue to the extent that the life of a human is of no more worth than the life of hyena.

But it is in the content of our character that the value of human being - and by extension his life - can be found. Not mere moral judgement ( take that as a yardstick and pretty soon the most cowardly finger-wagger becomes a man of great of worth! ), but in our actions.

I will go further than that.

The value of human life is equal to that what he or she would sacrifice it for - undauntedly and galantly, in the most disinterested manner. Not in how we cling on to it - but rather in how we let go of it.


I agree wholeheartedly. Not necessarily about the moral judgment part, but the rest of it sums up my views as well. The question at hand is not whether or not we are to place a value on human life, but what value. Furthermore is the value the same for each individual. I may have went about it in a long winded way, but my answer was basically "no".

The sacrifice you suggest would indicate that there is something worth sacrificing life for. It's up to every individual to answer this question for him/herself, and I personally can only think of a few things worth sacrificing my life for.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 06:11:36
By CravenTHC [1569996]

A} I agree wholeheartedly. Not necessarily about the moral judgment part, but the rest of it sums up my views as well. The question at hand is not whether or not we are to place a value on human life, but what value. Furthermore is the value the same for each individual. I may have went about it in a long winded way, but my answer was basically "no".

B] The sacrifice you suggest would indicate that there is something worth sacrificing life for. It's up to every individual to answer this question for him/herself, and I personally can only think of a few things worth sacrificing my life for.


B] To exchange for one thing - say the wellbeing of an infant you are responsible for - implies worth
To exchange for many thigs implies a lack of judgement.
To exchange for nothing implies worthlessness.
It then follows that being able to think of but few things worth sacrificing your life for is a great thing.
Quality, not quantity.

John Brown again makes a nice test-case. Would he have been more estimable had he been willing to sacrifice his own life for the mere territorial agrandizement of the United States ( Say the War against Mexico - 1843 ) AS WELL as for Abolition? His 'pickyness' about it only speaks in his favour.

Notice also that I speak of self-sacrifice and NOT the sacrifice-of-others. Any fool can sacrifice the life of othters.
Proof of point: how much would Marten Luther King have been worth if he had been willing to sacrifice the life of Rosa Parks, but not his own?

And finally - forgive the mild irony - these views also mean that I do not think of Civil Disobedience as something particularly estimable. To merely say ' I wont obey this' is not much.
To say 'Well, I suppose you could kill me. No onr ever said I was immortal. But you cannot make me comply.' - now that is quite another quality alltogether.


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A] I took a mediumsized-road to express my view that the proposition that all hman lifes have the same value is much the most contemptible proposition I've come across in the history of mankind.
It is not even beautiful nonsense. It is mere Kitsch. The moralistic equivalent of a Crying Clown picture.







Last Edited: Tue May 28, 2013 06:24:14
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DrZed

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 14:31:51
It depends upon what you mean by equal and what do you mean by life. By lives are you just referring to people or all animals and plant life as well.

If you are talking about people are they all equal? no. That does not mean that they are worth less it just means that they are not the same. It does not mean less important. You can not say everyone is equal on everything because people have different bodies and those allow people to do things or restrict them from doing certain things. Also their minds are different as well. Though the biggest problem is most people do not use their brains/minds enough. And choose to follow or be lead instead of realizing what is going on.

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Chagu

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 14:44:18
No.
Simple example: you may want to kill your principle or your maths teacher but not your best friend.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 15:09:15
By DrZed [237786]
It depends upon what you mean by equal and what do you mean by life. By lives are you just referring to people or all animals and plant life as well.

If you are talking about people are they all equal? no. That does not mean that they are worth less it just means that they are not the same. It does not mean less important. You can not say everyone is equal on everything because people have different bodies and those allow people to do things or restrict them from doing certain things. Also their minds are different as well. Though the biggest problem is most people do not use their brains/minds enough. And choose to follow or be lead instead of realizing what is going on.

Thus far, we have been talking of human life.

Is it your opinion then that the life of say, General Sikorski is worth te same as the life of Feliks Dzerzhinski?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_Sikorski
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky

Or you can compare the life of John Brown and that of his contemporary Clement Vallandigham.
The point remains the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallandigham

I suppose we can also explore what we mean with equal, or rather unequal:

With unequal, I mean that if we were to come across a good Nationalist leader like Sikorski, we should revere him and treat him with respect, whereas if we come across a Dzerzhinski - a 'progressive' henchman, a massmurderer and perverter of all good values, we ought to do everything to see to it that he receives the most severe treatment we can arrange.

The same goes for the Brown/Vallandigham-equation. One man dedicated his life that the union should remain the union - with the anti-slavery provisions as long-since wanted by the majority AND mandated by the teaching of the Church, whereas Vallandigham was willing to permit the union abrogated, War waged agaisnt his Country, every outrage and treason commited, as long as slaveowners were thus appeased.

If men are equal in value or worth, then it would be morally wrong to treat Vallandigham and Dzerzhinski as somehow lesser men than Brown or Sikorski.


Last Edited: Tue May 28, 2013 16:08:15
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