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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 06:26:17
By In-Flames [3083]
By Fujiko [341315]
By In-Flames [3083]
By Spurtung [96875]
By In-Flames [3083]
By Spurtung [96875]
so the military wants chemicals that destroys vegetation so they can spray it during a war, and you blame the company that produced it?

interesting.


I'm not blaming them but they are responsible for producing a chemical spray that was designed to destroy plants and it ended up killing and deforming millions of civilians over 5 decades. Would you want that company to be handling the products you eat?

What happens when next time they make extra large carrots that are meant to be more profitable and they end up causing horrific cancer years later? Google pictures of the rats that ate their GM-corn they cause cancer and defects on an incredible scale. According to the study 70% of female rats died far prematurely, and the males just died slower from full blown and highly aggressive cancer.


I understand that, but we can agree vietnam wasn't exactly a walk in the park.

what kind of requirements did the military ask for in those products? we don't know that.

in fact, just a few years earlier 2 atomic bombs were dropped in 2 cities, that too caused deformities.

not defending monsanto here, but not pinning this on them either, the military were never known for securing collateral damage


The atomic bombs were used unknowing the power they had, they were the first of their kind and had never been used in combat. Herbicides had been used before and agent orange was meant specifically for the destruction of thick forest and enemy crops, it was a hybrid of two chemical formulas. The us military had no advantage in the death of civilians it actually would make the whole operation a pr nightmare. It was Monsantos fault that agent orange was a lingering poison that would kill more people than crops. The us army was responsible for the call for the operation but Monsanto is to blame for the unforeseen effects considering they received good payment but they did not fact check their own creation, it was their fault that their product did more than it was asked to do.


Pardon the intrusion, but I saw a battle simulation program on Netflix, can't find it now, but basically they proposed that the Waffen S.S. would have succeeded where the U.S. Army failed (Vietnam conflict) because of two major factors. the thick Jackboots (the V.C. would set up traps comprised of sharpened sticks dipped in poo) and the S.S. use of flame-throwers.

I found that interesting that a force from a conflict 20 years earlier would have been superior in that type of warfare, despite the fact that the U.S. Army spent more money for less suitable equipment.

So basically, the chemical was less effective than flame-throwers used by the Germans in WW2 at doing what it was contracted to do. Sounds like a pretty shit product to me.


Thats not entirely true. Part of what made the Waffen SS (an elite unit) so effective was the fact that they killed indiscriminately, and committed HORRIBLE war crimes without compassion, mercy or use of the Geneva convention. I have no doubt that the SS would be more effective because if Hitler was around during Vietnam he would run his Panzers through the jungle like the Arden in 1940 and kill or deport every man, woman and child that stood in his way. The reason why the US had a lot of trouble in Vietnam was the fact that on top of having an outdated idea of warfare, and underestimating a very organized and formidable enemy, they also were bound by the rules of war and the press who demonized everything they could for shock value and TV ratings. The reason why Hitler could do what he could was he controlled the press and the public with an iron fist, he was able to do things, like running the death camps in Poland because no one knew about it. At the end of the war US and Allied forces took German citizens to the death camps to show them what their government was doing, and they genuinely were horrified. Many were sick beyond belief and others committed suicide after knowing they supported the Nazis while they massacred millions of people simply because of their ethnicity and religion. The average person in Germany during WW2 would have absolutely no idea about the camps, and speaking of them was grounds for being placed there if a Gestapo agent were to catch you speaking of such things... it was considered treason.


This was a computerized battle simulation, and those were the main 2 factors mentioned by the program. There were other factors involved, of course. They re-run the simulation like 50 times and relay the deciding factors involved in the majority of the simulations, along with the outcome.

Basically it was a scorched-earth type warfare, the Waffen SS tended to burn the villages, crops, etc. to the ground because so far from Germany keeping PoW's would not have been cost-effective. So yes, they killed basically everyone: men, women, and children. They did not bother with deporting anyone, similar to the Afrikakorps campaign.

The point was that flamethrowers would have been used with more precision than Agent Orange, as they would have been used on specific strategic targets rather than dusting a general toxic poison over a broad area. I'm pretty sure they did not simulate the Nazi propaganda machine, with its radio broadcasts.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 07:02:13
Nor was the Waffen SS an Elite Unit. The Waffen SS was replete with Croats, Slovaks and so on and so forth.
The Waffen SS recruited whereever the Heer did not recruit, and ended up being filled with people who 'officially' untermensch.

Likewise, people knew all that they wanted to know about concentration camps. All they WANTED to know. it's just that some people did not want to know.

Seems to me that certain people are reciting Nazi propganda when it suits them. The same people who wush to cry FOUL about ... what was that again?


Could it maybe, just maybe, that the loudmouths are just opposed to Capitalism in general?
If so, I have not the slightest sympathy for them.

I do not greatly care under which banner anti-capitalists march. islamism, socialism, nazism... whatever. As long as they get stopped,I do not care whether Agent Orange, Napalm, or a Pike is used.
As long as they get stopped!






Last Edited: Tue May 28, 2013 07:20:27
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_I_

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 09:51:47
By Fujiko [341315]
Basically it was a scorched-earth type warfare, the Waffen SS tended to burn the villages, crops, etc. to the ground because so far from Germany keeping PoW's would not have been cost-effective. So yes, they killed basically everyone: men, women, and children. They did not bother with deporting anyone, similar to the Afrikakorps campaign.

The point was that flamethrowers would have been used with more precision than Agent Orange, as they would have been used on specific strategic targets rather than dusting a general toxic poison over a broad area. I'm pretty sure they did not simulate the Nazi propaganda machine, with its radio broadcasts.


Um, there were no frontline Waffen-SS in the African Campaign (due to the personal intervention of Rommel, who wanted nothing to do with them), just a few REMF SD (SS-Police)units based in Tunis.

The Afrika Korps was generally well-respected by the Allies, and indeed, it's been called 'The Last Gentlemanly War', due to the overall lack of hate and atrocities committed on both sides.

Rommel was also known to have ignored the Kommandobefehl ordering the execution of commandos, and routinely 'overlook' orders relating to persecution and deportation of Jews.

Going back to the original point regarding 'long boots' and flamethrowers. Jackboots were being replaced fairly early on in the war for ankleboots. Also they didn't have a particularly hard sole, they were just leather, and fairly thin leather at that. The metal hobs were all that stopped the leather from wearing away. I have several pairs of genuine ww2 Marschstiefel (jackboots) and schnurschuh (ankleboots) and the soles are pretty similar. They wouldn't stop a sharpened stick particularly well, unless you happened to stand on it with the heel.

As regarding the Flammenwerfer, both the FmW-35 and FmW-41 variants had a usable fuel life of approximately 10-15 seconds usage, making it practically worthless in jungle conditions, which usually consisted of long, arduous missions. It's enough to wipe out a small village, not deforest an area. Logistical concerns would mean that bringing enough fuel in would be prohibitive. It also didn't counter the use of Viet-Minh/NVA tunnels, that included 'airlocks' and flametraps, to counter exactly this issue.

In short, the TV program was wrong.

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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 11:02:08
By _I_ [575607]

Um, there were no frontline Waffen-SS in the African Campaign (due to the personal intervention of Rommel, who wanted nothing to do with them), just a few REMF SD (SS-Police)units based in Tunis.

The Afrika Korps was generally well-respected by the Allies, and indeed, it's been called 'The Last Gentlemanly War', due to the overall lack of hate and atrocities committed on both sides.

Rommel was also known to have ignored the Kommandobefehl ordering the execution of commandos, and routinely 'overlook' orders relating to persecution and deportation of Jews.

Going back to the original point regarding 'long boots' and flamethrowers. Jackboots were being replaced fairly early on in the war for ankleboots. Also they didn't have a particularly hard sole, they were just leather, and fairly thin leather at that. The metal hobs were all that stopped the leather from wearing away. I have several pairs of genuine ww2 Marschstiefel (jackboots) and schnurschuh (ankleboots) and the soles are pretty similar. They wouldn't stop a sharpened stick particularly well, unless you happened to stand on it with the heel.

As regarding the Flammenwerfer, both the FmW-35 and FmW-41 variants had a usable fuel life of approximately 10-15 seconds usage, making it practically worthless in jungle conditions, which usually consisted of long, arduous missions. It's enough to wipe out a small village, not deforest an area. Logistical concerns would mean that bringing enough fuel in would be prohibitive. It also didn't counter the use of Viet-Minh/NVA tunnels, that included 'airlocks' and flametraps, to counter exactly this issue.

In short, the TV program was wrong.


Were you to actually read my post, you might have picked up on the fact that I was saying that people weren't deported in the Afrikakorps campaign, just as they would not have been deported in this simulated conflict because, being so far from Germany, they would keep no PoW's for any length of time beyond interrogation. I did not say that the Waffen SS were deployed to Africa, but that their deportation policy would have been the same.

Have you ever seen a video of a WW2 German soldier marching? They put their weight on their heels, and followed with the balls of their feet. When those VC traps became known they would have used the boot design to their advantage. The heels of a Nazi jackboot would have stopped the stick traps, whereas no portion of an U.S. military-issue boot had that capacity. It would have been easy enough to have kept the majority of weight on the heels of the boots when faced with those traps

I wasn't trying to over-complicate things, or relay the entire program, since my intent was to make a point relating to the topic, specifically Agent Orange, but the Waffen SS did not consist of soley Panzer divisions and tanks. They also made use of grenades of varying types. They also had Infantry units.

source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

Type

Panzer
Panzergrenadier
Cavalry
Infantry
Mountain Infantry
Police

Size 38 Divisions and many minor units at its peak
Part of Wehrmacht (de facto)
------
They also would have had air support, and fuel/resupplies would have been flown in by the Luftwaffe, most likely air-dropped.

Assuming you have read the article and now know what the Waffen SS was, why would you think it necessary for it to participate in large-scale deforestation? These are jungle plants, not thick oak trees... As I stated (and you basically reiterated), flamethrowers would/could only have been used for burning enemy crops and specific strategic targets...

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Unless, perhaps, you fancy these sorts of plants would have stopped a Panzer division from clearing a path through the jungle?

Everything they came across they burnt down, they murdered and pillaged. The officers and men of the SS division Prinz Eugen committed crimes of an outrageous cruelty on this occasion. The victims were shot, slaughtered and tortured, or burnt to death in burning houses. Where a victim was found not in his house but on the road or in the fields some distance away, he was murdered and burnt there. Infants with their mothers, pregnant women and frail old people were also murdered. In short, every civilian met with by these troops in these villages was murdered. In many cases, whole families who, not expecting such treatment or lacking the time for escape, had remained quietly in their homes were annihilated and murdered. Whole families were thrown into burning houses in many cases and thus burnt. It has been established from the investigations entered upon that 121 persons, mostly women, and including 30 persons aged 60-92 years and 29 children of ages ranging from 6 months to 14 years, were executed on this occasion in the horrible manner narrated above. The villages [and then follows the list of the villages] were burnt down and razed to the ground.

Dr. Duan Nedeljkovi, Yugoslav State Commission, Document D-940

A Waffen SS campaign in Vietnam would have gone down something like this. Yes, it would have put the fear into the Vietnamese. I am pretty sure that the program is correct.

In short, you're talking out your arse. Also, let's get back to In-Flames' point that Agent Orange was the equivalent of a club when the military was needing a scalpel.

It's a good thing the future of free enterprise didn't hinge on the free enterprise that brought about Agent Orange, nya, DarthBrogo?

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_I_

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 12:06:12
By Fujiko [341315]
Have you ever seen a video of a WW2 German soldier marching? They put their weight on their heels, and followed with the balls of their feet.


Y'know they didn't goose-step on active duty, right? That was purely dress uniform parade ground stuff. On active duty, they walked pretty much the same as every other nation. If you think they stomped around Europe like that, you're way off.

Not sure about German tank warfare doctrine for jungle terrain, as they didn't actually make any, but as far as British orders went, tanks were generally advised not to/unable to leave roads. Jungle terrain is too boggy on the whole for tank warfare, and anyway, tanks are fairly useless against guerrilla tactics. In jungle warfare, tanks were predominantly used in small numbers to take out any other armoured opposition, along main routes with the infantry doing most of the fighting. As the Viet-Minh/NVA had very little in the way of armoured support, tanks would be more of a hindrance than a help.

This is actually my living, I write about military history, and have two books about W-SS units under my belt. Also, just for info, if you're pulling 'facts' from Morningstar's 'Deadliest Warrior' series, I actually turned down a talking head spot on it...

But, y'know, this is well off topic. If you'd like to continue talking about Waffen-SS tactics, or the Africa Campaign, feel free to PM me.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue May 28, 2013 13:38:09
By Fujiko [341315]
SNIP
It's a good thing the future of free enterprise didn't hinge on the free enterprise that brought about Agent Orange, nya, DarthBrogo?


As opposed to letting the future of Mankind depend on Socialism?


In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM





It does not matter whether the Anti-Capitalist calls himself a Nazi or Socialist. Tis but a difference of not even 3 weeks. One attacks on the first of Sptember 1939 the other on the 17th of the same month.




Cartel1.jpg

415px-Katyn_-_decision_of_massacre_p1.jp
Documentation of Stalin's decision to exterminate Polish Catholic, Capitalist and, Nationalist elemnts, the cream of the Nation.


Last Edited: Tue May 28, 2013 14:03:16
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In-Flames
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Posted on Wed May 29, 2013 00:58:13
By DarthBrogo [21801]
Nor was the Waffen SS an Elite Unit. The Waffen SS was replete with Croats, Slovaks and so on and so forth.
The Waffen SS recruited whereever the Heer did not recruit, and ended up being filled with people who 'officially' untermensch.

Likewise, people knew all that they wanted to know about concentration camps. All they WANTED to know. it's just that some people did not want to know.

Seems to me that certain people are reciting Nazi propganda when it suits them. The same people who wush to cry FOUL about ... what was that again?


I am sorry, some units of the SS were considered elite but it was not elite as a whole.

People did not "know what they wanted to know" about the camps, they were propagandized to the public as working camps for "undesirable" people, they were portrayed as harsh but livable. People who knew about the camps were made to keep quiet by the same people that enforced the public in regard to how they spoke in public places. I remember reading about one woman listening to a man speak of how disgraceful it was to burn synagogues, he called it a "disgrace to german culture". A Gestapo agent overheard him speaking, flashed his ID and forced the man to report to the main Gestapo office in their city for "a talk" which could mean anything from a threatening talk to a severe beating, or even worse. This is what comes from living under fascist regime, something we can't really compare to today in the west. If you would like proof of that I can refer you to some sources of mine. The Waffen SS recruited others as they saw fit, but were outside of the general army, something I sometimes confuse for being specialized.

I also wish to reiterate that the Nazis would have been able to do a lot more than the Americans could because they would do everything and anything it took to destroy their enemy. For example American soldiers always felt uneasy about walking through civilian villages because they could never tell if they were amongst allies or spies, enemies or friends. The Nazis would have no issues, if villagers turned on German troops they would round up dozens if not hundreds of villagers and bring them to a large population of others and shoot them to death. There were many accounts of Germans being killed by civilians or partisan fighters, the response would always be retaliation 10 fold or more, 100s of citizens may be killed for the death of one or two Nazis. There are towns in France still deserted to this day because the Nazis took the entire population of these towns and shot them to all to death simply out of anger and revenge. The Americans also had trouble walking into the jungle, as their enemy was well versed in jungle warfare, as well as ambushes and traps. The Nazis would simply drop as many incendiary bombs as possible on the canopy. If your enemy hides in the forest, take away his cover. During the cold war The US was handcuffed by many things, one of them being global opinion. If they burned down thousands of acres of forest, not only would they lose global support, but the Soviet union would gain support by default. The Nazis would feel no remorse by destroying the entire jungle if need be, they would destroy the whole country if it meant ending enemy resistance. An example of this would be what happened in the Netherlands, when the allies advanced they blew the damns, cut power and food to the local population. This action killed thousands and the country was torn to pieces, but it also slowed the allied advance, something they desperately needed.

Last Edited: Wed May 29, 2013 01:17:07
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Spurtung

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Posted on Wed May 29, 2013 01:17:10
By In-Flames [3083]
By DarthBrogo [21801]
Nor was the Waffen SS an Elite Unit.

I am sorry, some units of the SS were considered elite but it was not elite as a whole.




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In-Flames
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Posted on Wed May 29, 2013 01:18:08
By Spurtung [96875]
By In-Flames [3083]
By DarthBrogo [21801]
Nor was the Waffen SS an Elite Unit.

I am sorry, some units of the SS were considered elite but it was not elite as a whole.




Some SS units were elite, but saying that the SS as a whole was elite is a false statement.

For example the 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler was an extremely elite SS unit, where as the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland was made up of nordic volunteers and it was not considered elite.

Last Edited: Wed May 29, 2013 01:20:09
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