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Irish_Dude
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Thread created on Mon Nov 11, 2013 19:20:21
Last replied to on Sat Dec 07, 2013 14:04:29
http://www.votesawant.org/

Have to say its great to see an open socialist having the opportunity of maybe winning an election in america! What do you guys think about this?

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Mon Nov 11, 2013 19:33:16
What I think is that the only good socialist is a dead socialist.

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BuckWyld

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Posted on Sun Nov 17, 2013 05:15:51
whats the difference between this socialist & the one we have in office now?

i like the "idea" of his $15 an hr. minimum wage he's proposing. sad reality of it though. it will just drive the price of everything else up thus lowering the value of the dollar even more.

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Phegasus
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Posted on Sun Nov 17, 2013 19:16:53
By BuckWyld [1009930]
whats the difference between this socialist & the one we have in office now?

i like the "idea" of his $15 an hr. minimum wage he's proposing. sad reality of it though. it will just drive the price of everything else up thus lowering the value of the dollar even more.


Obama is no socialist.

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BuckWyld

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Posted on Sun Nov 17, 2013 23:47:53
By Phegasus [463442]
By BuckWyld [1009930]
whats the difference between this socialist & the one we have in office now?

i like the "idea" of his $15 an hr. minimum wage he's proposing. sad reality of it though. it will just drive the price of everything else up thus lowering the value of the dollar even more.


Obama is no socialist.


if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Guess what. IT'S A DUCK.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Mon Nov 18, 2013 02:08:53
By BuckWyld [1009930]
By Phegasus [463442]
By BuckWyld [1009930]
whats the difference between this socialist & the one we have in office now?

i like the "idea" of his $15 an hr. minimum wage he's proposing. sad reality of it though. it will just drive the price of everything else up thus lowering the value of the dollar even more.


Obama is no socialist.


if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Guess what. IT'S A DUCK.


Exactly. It does not look, walk or quack like a duck.

Straight from the bat, them ducks go for ownership, not income.

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Farmerofash
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Posted on Mon Nov 18, 2013 06:50:38
lameduck.jpg

http://ash-kaddoura.mybrute.com
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 20:52:51
Socialised medicine is socialist. Obama has gone all in for socialised medicine. Logical conclusion: Obama is socialist.

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-El-

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 20:55:33
By Phegasus [463442]
By BuckWyld [1009930]
whats the difference between this socialist & the one we have in office now?

i like the "idea" of his $15 an hr. minimum wage he's proposing. sad reality of it though. it will just drive the price of everything else up thus lowering the value of the dollar even more.


Obama is no socialist.


I actually got tired of saying that. Now I just ignore it.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 21:05:42
By Fujiko [341315]
Socialised medicine is socialist. Obama has gone all in for socialised medicine. Logical conclusion: Obama is socialist.


In that case, Neu Arbeit [Deutsch for New Labour] is Nazi to the core.

Short of sticking six million Jews on gas mark six for ten minutes, this political elite's agenda is staggeringly similar to the NSDAP. You just wait and see me ol' mucker!

Also shows great similarities with George Orwell's vision of 1984. Disturbingly ironic and blackly amusing since it was Labour who accused the Conservative Party government in 1984 of turning the country into a police state. Scientific advisers are employed by the government to give the answers they want to hear. If the answer is different, the advisor is sacked or used as a very public scapegoat and driven to suicide.

Current or upcoming New Labour policies: (feel free to add)

Checking children's lunch boxes for nutrition and writing threatening letters to parents who don't feed their children to an 'acceptable' standard.
Taxation level considerably in excess of what the medieval slave/peasant had to pay (and he didn't have stealth taxes to worry about!)
Weighing children to ensure they are the correct weight.
ID cards for all, which we have to pay for - bit like the Chinese government shooting someone then charging the family for the bullet.
Satellite-monitoring of every car in the country.
Central databases to track every interaction with the state.
Shoot to kill acceptable because of 'terrorism'.
Fingerprinting for the most minor misdemeanor.
Taking a DNA sample from every 'arrest' at a police station even if they have to 'arrest' then 'unarrest' the victim.
Establishment of a DNA database for all newborn (Operation Herod).
The striking off of NHS patients who refuse permission for their GP to enter medical records on a national database.
Proposals to palm print children at school for ID purposes. Allegedly so as not to stigmatize those getting free meals ... and get their dabs at the same time. This has changed from a simple "credit card" system (where money is paid on to avoid stigmatisation and to allow children not to take cash into school) to a full on ID system. The idea that started as an almost legitimate way to ensure children didn't get bullied has morphed into a method of government grooming of both children and parents to make ID cards more palatable.
Latest (nothing to do with control of the plebes honest) plan is to psychometric test everyone applying for a driving license. This is supposed to weed out the road rage nutters but is more likely just getting more information for the Projekt1984 databases.
Rather than spending the money they extort out of us from the Road Tax on the roads, allow everyone to drive on the hard shoulder. Is it just me or isn't the hard shoulder there for emergencies and breakdowns?
The introduction of Children's Courts, where disruptive and generally feral kids can go to be sentenced... wait for it... by child judges! [Who thinks this shyte up?]
Police harassment of anyone deemed to be 'anti-social' although the definition of anti-social seems to be a bit vague!
Identification of a 'racist' family life when "A child reacts negatively to a culinary tradition other than their own by saying, 'Yuck!"
The suppression of peaceful protest or the utilisation of tactics to turn a peaceful protest violent in order to validate the opinion of the Reich that all protest is dangerous and must be quelled to maintain order.
In addition to allowing civilians to use speed guns to catch their friends and neighbours speeding along their street, the government is now allowing the monitoring of CCTV by people sat at home who will be paid for detecting crimes. Lovely - I quite like the idea of being watched whilst I shop by some sad prat sat at home furiously masturbating over CCTV just in case I accidentally drop some litter. CCTV used to have very restricted access under the law - shops could only review it under specific circumstances and could only pass it on to the police. It was something to do with privacy. Anyone remember what that is?


Logical conclusion: totally Nazi, mein Fuhrer!

labourlogo.jpg

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 21:17:01
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:00:17
Hahah, DarthBrogo, I wasn't making a fallacious false dichotomy, and I can certainly concede that there are indeed degrees of socialism. I did, however want to use simple logic to try to help the "Obama is not socialist" crowd realise that implementing socialist programmes is, in fact, SOCIALIST.

Forcing citizens to buy health insurance is not free enterprise. End of.

Obviously, your list shows that New Labour hasn't quite got National Socialism down to a "t" either, because a good Nazi would always prefer German culinary tradition, being that they are the Master Race, and would eschew others. Racism was an integral part of the NSDAP...

They do seem to be getting there though.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:09:50
By Fujiko [341315]
Hahah, DarthBrogo, I wasn't making a fallacious false dichotomy, and I can certainly concede that there are indeed degrees of socialism. I did, however want to use simple logic to try to help the "Obama is not socialist" crowd realise that implementing socialist programmes is, in fact, SOCIALIST.

Forcing citizens to buy health insurance is not free enterprise. End of.

Obviously, your list shows that New Labour hasn't quite got National Socialism down to a "t" either, because a good Nazi would always prefer German culinary tradition, being that they are the Master Race, and would eschew others. Racism was an integral part of the NSDAP...

They do seem to be getting there though.


False dichtomy indeed.
National Healthcare - part of the Wellfare State - is part the OrdoLiberal programme.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy
Social market economy

This article is about the Western European system. For the economic system in the People's Republic of China, see socialist market economy.
Not to be confused with market socialism.

Social market economy (German: Soziale Marktwirtschaft) is a form of market capitalism combined with a social policy favoring union bargaining and social insurance,[1] and is sometimes classified as a coordinated market economy.[2] It is often referred to as Rhine capitalism to stress the various similarities with the contemporary economic order in many Western European countries and Japan.[3][4]

The social market economy was originally promoted and implemented in West Germany by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) under Chancellor Konrad Adenauer in 1949.[5]

The social market economy was designed to be a third way between laissez-faire economic liberalism and social democratic mixed economies.[6] It was strongly inspired by ordoliberalism[7] and the tradition of Catholic social teaching (or more generally, Christian ethics).[6]

Social market economies aim to combine free initiative and social progress on the basis of a competitive economy.[8] The social market economy is opposed to socialism and laissez-faire policies.


'Free Enterprise' is an idiosyncrasy of the Anglosphere - just like Mormonism - and the World is better off without such heresies.

You can go all the way back to Imperial Rome and the plain truth remains: being allowed to sell to the public is a PRIVILEGE and not a right.


Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:19:08
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:28:35
Same source:

Quoting Stephen Padgett: "A central tenet of ordo-liberalism is a clearly defined division of labor in economic management, with specific responsibilities assigned to particular institutions. Monetary policy should be the responsibility of a central bank committed to monetary stability and low inflation, and insulated from political pressure by independent status. Fiscal policybalancing tax revenue against government expenditureis the domain of the government, whilst macro-economic policy is the preserve of employers and trade unions."

Form that perspective, the idea that the Obama administration can be classified as ordo-liberal fails miserably. No central bank has existed in the United States for decades, and Americans, as a whole, consider labour unions to be voluntary, and their ties to the mafia are well-established (www.americanmafia.com/Crime_And_Labor.html is my evidence for that last bit there).

However, the fact that the implementation of National Healthcare would be a shift from a capitalist system to a more socialist one stands.

By DarthBrogo [21801]
You can go all the way back to Imperial Rome and the plain truth remains: being allowed to sell to the public is a PRIVILEGE and not a right.


Perhaps, but that does not dispel the fact that the right of a consumer to decline to purchase undesired goods or services is, by definition, a right.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:32:45
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:35:07
The more important point stands that Universal Healthcare is part of OrdoLiberalism.
If the US of A is not 100% OrdoLiberal [more like 0%] then adopting UH is a step in the right direction.

Now, maybe we can also get a bit of pressure to introduce BasicIncome or NIT.

basicincome2013.eu/ubi/

Perhaps, but that does not dispel the fact that the right of a consumer to decline to purchase undesired goods or services is, by definition, a right.

I don't know about that, tbh. You may think that sex-ed or religious-ed is undesired, but a refusal to participate IS a criminal offense. Sewage and Drainage, same thing.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:54:46
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:52:03
Not at all. It is UNLAWFUL. It would require Constitutional Amendment!

Have you never heard of Christian Scientists? Read up on them here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_science

The religion's adherents, known as Christian Scientists, subscribe to a radical form of philosophical idealism, believing that spiritual reality is the only reality and that the material world is an illusion.[5] This includes the view that sickness and death are illusions caused by mistaken beliefs, and that the sick should be treated by a special form of prayer intended to correct those beliefs, rather than by medicine.[6]

Therefore, in order to require a Christian Scientist to purchase health insurance, which would clearly violate the tenants of his or her religion, would necessitate the abolition or amendment of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

By DarthBrogo [21801]
I don't know about that, tbh. You may think that sex-ed or religious-ed is undesired, but a refusal to participate IS a criminal offense. Sewage and Drainage, same thing.


I don't know what you're going for here. Many schools have an opt-out for sex-ed...

www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-policies-on-sex-education-in-schools.aspx

Many states define parents rights concerning sexual education:

37 states and the District of Columbia require school districts to allow parental involvement in sexual education programs.
Three states require parental consent before a child can receive instruction.
35 states and the District of Columbia allow parents to opt-out on behalf of their children.

As for religious-ed, that argument is addressed in the 1st Amendment as well.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:00:30
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 22:58:32
Again, where I grew up, clearly violating the tenets of a religion, say on garb, simply requires a police order. The law says what the authorities say it says, nothing more, nothing less. Ask FDR [ or any of his detractors ] all about it.

If someone's attitude is 'you'll hsve to pry my cooperation out of my cold dead fingers' then I have no problems with saying 'one busload of squaddies coming right up!'.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:04:26
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:02:46
If the law violates itself, then a state of anarchy prevails. In the United States, the remedy for that is simple: abolish all law, hold a Constitutional Convention, and start again.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:07:52
Naw. Just use the Caesarian Option and hold an improptu referendum - voting by the Century&Cohort.
After all, when anarchy takes place, one enforces Law'n'Order at the point of a bayonet.

If you wish to dispute the right of the Army to ensure tranquility, obedience to Authority and whatnot:
Moloon Labe.

No one gave me the authority to act in emergency. I simply took it.
Helmut Schmidt.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:13:04
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:12:10
Despite what you may believe, Americans are, by and large, a peaceful lot. They prefer not to shoot one another, despite a few gun accidents and unfortunate propaganda-initiated shootings which take place in schools from time-to-time.

It would be far better to resolve these issues peacefully, abolish all law, and the dollar, and begin again, rather than have a civil war like the one you describe, DarthBrogo.

Constitutional law FTW, it is unlawful for the U.S. military to be deployed against U.S. citizens, and the soldiers themselves can (legally) walk out en masse if given repeated UNLAWFUL ORDERs to do so.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:14:50
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:17:26
*shrug* a notion entirely too abstract to convince a single squaddie.

No one gave me the authority to act in emergency. I simply took it.
Helmut Schmidt.
If you wish to dispute that right - Moloon Labe.


Constitutional law FTW, it is unlawful for the U.S. military to be deployed against U.S. citizens, and the soldiers themselves can (legally) walk out en masse if given repeated UNLAWFUL ORDERs to do so.

But then, if you abolish all law in order to have a constitutional convention, you get this little interregnum during which that sonorous phrase 'lawful orders' is a semantic nill and anything goes.

Ultimately, you get to the point where Caeser tells Cicero that if killing Cicero is quicker than convincing Cicero, Caesar will do just that and kill Cicero on the spot.

Last Edited: Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:25:39
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Fujiko

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2013 23:59:25
American soldiers are Americans. They will participate in the convention, not disrupt it. Now is the time, and if not now, soon. Such is the subtle greatness of the Founding Fathers.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Wed Nov 20, 2013 00:02:28
I don't blame the FF one bit for getting shot of Lord North and his merry toffs.
But otherwise.... lets just say I've got more appreciation for the wisdom of Ieyasu.

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Fujiko

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Posted on Wed Nov 20, 2013 02:01:55
By DarthBrogo [21801]
What I think is that the only good socialist is a dead socialist.


Your opinion is easily influenced.



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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Wed Nov 20, 2013 09:07:39
By Fujiko [341315]
By DarthBrogo [21801]
What I think is that the only good socialist is a dead socialist.


Your opinion is easily influenced.



Growing up under the shadow of the CPSU is more than just an easy influence, Fujiko-san.

410px-Dewiza-SW.jpg

PS. If you wish to argue that I am confusing Communism with Socialism then I say it's up to Socialists who believe they are NOT Communists to clear the matter up by fully supporting the use of lethal force to exterminate the last Communist on the planet.


[img]http://ibeching.tumblr.com/image/58928437668[/img]

Men, women, and children died
They were fighting side by side
And the blood they upon streets
Was a sacrifice willingly PAID!

There is no moral difference between between '39 and '68.
We know everything.
We rememeber everything.
The word Communnist is now among the worst curses we know.
We shall not talk.
We shall not get upset.
That word simply pulls the trigger.





Last Edited: Wed Nov 20, 2013 15:30:28
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Rip-The-Jacker

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Posted on Thu Nov 21, 2013 07:26:11
I think voting is pointless. Same main agenda's, just little pointless pro's and con's to distract you from the bigger picture, same people by their side and same people behind them. Just a different face (to blame).
But I don't discourage nobody from voting if that's how they feel. But do it because it reflects your best interests, not cause it's popular. You've made that mistake before.

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Rip-The-Jacker

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Posted on Thu Nov 21, 2013 07:27:37
-

Last Edited: Thu Nov 21, 2013 07:28:38
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Fujiko

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Posted on Sat Nov 30, 2013 22:31:48
By DarthBrogo [21801]


Growing up under the shadow of the CPSU is more than just an easy influence, Fujiko-san.


PS. If you wish to argue that I am confusing Communism with Socialism then I say it's up to Socialists who believe they are NOT Communists to clear the matter up by fully supporting the use of lethal force to exterminate the last Communist on the planet.



I might just agree with you there. Let me ponder it while watching this educational film...



Last Edited: Sat Nov 30, 2013 22:43:11
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 14:40:02
By JenniferCollins [341315]
By DarthBrogo [21801]


Growing up under the shadow of the CPSU is more than just an easy influence, Fujiko-san.


PS. If you wish to argue that I am confusing Communism with Socialism then I say it's up to Socialists who believe they are NOT Communists to clear the matter up by fully supporting the use of lethal force to exterminate the last Communist on the planet.



I might just agree with you there. Let me ponder it while watching this educational film...



Not sure if your remarks are meant to be funny or not, Jennifer...

The film, while dated and contrived is still relevant today in my opinion. It was created during a time when the communist threat was very real... just ask the Kulaks, and the occupants of the gulags, or the victims of Mao's Cultural Revolution... millions and millions of victims as a matter of fact.

It is easy to think that the threats of communism are laughable today, especially when the government of the USA is essentially thumbing it's nose at the Constitution... all in the name of national security, but those threats were at the forefront of the national conscience in 1962, on the heals of the Pay of Pigs fiasco, and the Russian Missile Crisis being only recent events.

Last Edited: Tue Dec 03, 2013 15:09:10
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LSD

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Posted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 15:08:31
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
By JenniferCollins [341315]
By DarthBrogo [21801]


Growing up under the shadow of the CPSU is more than just an easy influence, Fujiko-san.


PS. If you wish to argue that I am confusing Communism with Socialism then I say it's up to Socialists who believe they are NOT Communists to clear the matter up by fully supporting the use of lethal force to exterminate the last Communist on the planet.



I might just agree with you there. Let me ponder it while watching this educational film...



Not sure if your remarks are meant to be funny or not, Jennifer...

The film, while dated and contrived is still relevant today in my opinion. It was created during a time when the communist threat was very real... just ask the Kulaks, and the occupants of the gulags, or the victims of Mao's Cultural Revolution... millions and millions of victims as a matter of fact.

It is easy to think that the threats of communism are laughable today, especially when the government of the USA is essentially thumbing it's nose at the Constitution... all in the name of national security, but those threats were at the forefront of the national conscience in 1962, on the heals of the Pay of Pigs fiasco, and the Russian Missile Crisis being only recent events.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

20uz85h.jpg
userbar714645cj5.gif
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 15:11:11
By LSD [883567]
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
By JenniferCollins [341315]
By DarthBrogo [21801]


Growing up under the shadow of the CPSU is more than just an easy influence, Fujiko-san.


PS. If you wish to argue that I am confusing Communism with Socialism then I say it's up to Socialists who believe they are NOT Communists to clear the matter up by fully supporting the use of lethal force to exterminate the last Communist on the planet.



I might just agree with you there. Let me ponder it while watching this educational film...



Not sure if your remarks are meant to be funny or not, Jennifer...

The film, while dated and contrived is still relevant today in my opinion. It was created during a time when the communist threat was very real... just ask the Kulaks, and the occupants of the gulags, or the victims of Mao's Cultural Revolution... millions and millions of victims as a matter of fact.

It is easy to think that the threats of communism are laughable today, especially when the government of the USA is essentially thumbing it's nose at the Constitution... all in the name of national security, but those threats were at the forefront of the national conscience in 1962, on the heals of the Pay of Pigs fiasco, and the Russian Missile Crisis being only recent events.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


You are a moron, LSD.

A moron, who never has anything to say, other than something snarky and stupid, and usually childish.



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Ebony
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Posted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 15:31:24
lol I laughed when I saw the $15/hr minimum wage banner RIGHT on the website page.

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