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DarthBrogo

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Thread created on Sun Nov 03, 2013 00:56:30
Last replied to on Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:10:20
with Elites if you despise them?


IOUs were invented by a mercantile class for its own purposes of control
Mass entertainment - INCLUDING your I-pods- were invented so an elite could sell YOU a bit of data for a couple of dollars.
TRADE MARKS - likewise - the same purpose.
Season tickets for spectator sports.
The list goes on.

By and large, the chains that you claim to be oppressed by - you OPTED to wear.

No one is forbidding you to make your owm songs, write your own books, wear stuff w/o trade-marks, and so on and so forth.

Rather than say 'count me out' you insist that A] you should have access to these things
and B] Others should be punished for refusing to play the game.

So - why did you do it?

As for me: I don't criticise elites. I simply opt not to interact with them, whenever possible.

Tne game is theirs, for their purposes. You have to pay to play. But you don't HAVE to play.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 00:58:04
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Tolshortte

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 01:06:57
ive said something like this for quite a while. why bash on corporations then go and buy their products.

instead of trying to change how the game is played people should learn how to play it first.



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LSD

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 01:10:28
By Tolshortte [648554]
why bash on corporations then go and buy their products.


Exactly. Bash them, then pirate their shit.
Job done.

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BuckWyld

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 01:12:57
what options do we really have Brogo? protesting often leads to arrest. (especially with Obama signing a bill making it illegal "if" secret service determines a threat is present). Arrest leads to time off work, which leads to not being able to pay my bills or feed those that depend on me. & i dont even want to fathom the option that would run through my head if facing that dilemma.

me personally. I dont like to dress in rags, but im not impressed by name brand clothing. I dont need a new car every year, as long as what i have is not ridden with rust & starts without having to jump the battery every morning. I still haven't bought a flat screen t.v., (even though i do got my eye on a couple of them) my furniture is not bad. But i dont have no living room set worth 5k. (as i have kids so that be pointless anyways)

as far as the rest go's i try to go as far as possible to make sure "the man" see's as lil profit as possible for my hard earned Buck. But some stuff. (gas & rising food prices) they got ya by the balls no matter what way ya go about it.

There really is no option unless we as A WHOLE. decide to say f**k it & bum rush capitol hill. Which is entirely possible. But of course casualties would be present.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 01:22:31
I don't protest.
I simply limit the amount of branded products 2 just Nescafe coffee and Saxa table-salt.

When I call for a ban on consumer credit, or a boycott of anything that has 'intellectual property of' stamped on itm, it is the same principle.

No violence, no revolution, no protest, simply putting The Man on ignore.

411px-Salt_March.jpg
Ghandi picks up salt, rather than buy it.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 01:29:58
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BuckWyld

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 03:05:08
How can you be sure the same corporation your protesting doesn't have rights to the lower brands as well. i.e. say i usually buy Aunt jemima syrup, but i decide to go with great value brand in an attempt to "support" the cause. but "the man" technically owns both,, or i.e the great value brand is just the shit they scraped out of the tube that was left over in the processing plant..

not trying to argue. But when ya think about it, would "the man" (if there smart about it) Not have all corners of the market covered.

In case your wondering. I do grow a good bit of my own vegetables. But how am i even sure the man doesn't own the plant that packages the seeds.

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CravenTHC

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 03:17:20
By DarthBrogo [21801]
with Elites if you despise them?


When you're raised in a christian conservative household that teaches that the republican party is infallible, and that capitalism has no faults whatsoever, it is difficult to overcome that mindset. I am 28 years old, as of last month, IF I had been exposed to the truth sooner I would not cooperate as much as I currently do.

IOUs were invented by a mercantile class for its own purposes of control
Mass entertainment - INCLUDING your I-pods- were invented so an elite could sell YOU a bit of data for a couple of dollars.
TRADE MARKS - likewise - the same purpose.
Season tickets for spectator sports.
The list goes on.


The only mass entertainment product that I own is an Xbox 360. I own it because it allows me some kind of respite. My computer is nearly a decade old and runs Linux. My cellphone is at least three years old, and is a hand-me-down. I have yet to own a smartphone, i-pod, or other niche device. I don't wear licensed clothing, or use licensed products that I know I would have issues with. I can't afford sports tickets for one event, much less for the season.

Having said all that I don't really know what that has to do with anything. Every bit of this current state of affairs was determined for us more than a century ago. How on earth these things contribute to the control that the world banks have on society is beyond me.

I'd also like to point out that even the largest of corporations, and smallest businesses, are beholden to the bankers. It matters not if you're trying to be anti-capitalism. In the world we live in the only way to make zero contribution to the greed would be to live in a log cabin, without any modern amenities, and grow/raise your own food supply.

By and large, the chains that you claim to be oppressed by - you OPTED to wear.


The reason that I replied to this thread.

This is grade A 100% bullshit. How many in this world would remember what it was like before? How many had to work in the iron works of the industrial revolution? How many remember the anti-trust suits, or monopolies that sprung up? How many do you think even have a clue what the great depression was really like? How many do you think care? It's not by their own volition either.

Free will is a double edged sword, but when no real effort is being made to bring the message to the masses what good does it do to opt out? If it's not interesting, it's not worth learning about. Aside from the places on the internet that preach to those already seeking to learn, the only mention of the things above are passing moments in a high school history class.

If history is about learning where we came from then we are most certainly doomed to repeat it. Instead we're told about great wars and heroes. We're told about achievements of humanity. We're given fantastic stories of the ancient world. All of these things are good, but if we barely know our recent history then what context are the lessons of the ancient world being taught in?

The point of this wall-o-text is that if you would like to claim that we're willing prisoners, then you would need to prove that we're given an option in the first place. The only other option is hidden, and only spoken about among "odd" types. The truth is demonized and suppressed, and nobody cares to search on their own. People are easily manipulated, and we are already too late for that revelation.

No one is forbidding you to make your owm songs, write your own books, wear stuff w/o trade-marks, and so on and so forth.


Most of what you mention here takes talent, and as I already stated the only way for a human to live a zero impact life would be to revert back to the frontiersman lifestyle.

Rather than say 'count me out' you insist that A] you should have access to these things
and B] Others should be punished for refusing to play the game.


I didn't ask for technology any more than Kennedy asked for a bullet in his head. These things were presented to all of us as positive, and the rate of fair exchange is the only bad part about most of technology. Sure some of it has been used for massively negative purposes, but that has widely been by the puppets of the various world governments.

I'm also not sure what point you're trying to make with "B]". Who would begrudge someone the choice to opt out of modern technology? Isn't that what the Amish do? Who's anti-Amish?

So - why did you do it?

As for me: I don't criticise elites. I simply opt not to interact with them, whenever possible.

Tne game is theirs, for their purposes. You have to pay to play. But you don't HAVE to play.


I'd like to know how you plan to continue existing without a grocer, local bank, electricity, refrigeration, etc...? Sure there are a few conveniences that we could all cut out of our lives, but if we're not going all the way off the grid then what good does it really do? You're still a statistic, you're still participating, you're just doing it so that you can claim some superiority. There is none to be had though.

Until the time comes to gather up arms we are all equal participants on the journey to tyranny. Until the majority of peoples can be convinced, any attempt to usurp the central banks from their current seat of power would be quelled far too quickly to make any difference. Our ancestors sewed the seeds of our destruction, and now we are cultivating the harvest for the future to reap.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 03:21:06
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By: Yoshihiro [1244536]
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 03:50:04
Two principles have stood face-to-face from the beginning of time; and they will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings.
Abraham Lincoln

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 08:38:05
I would answer to the totality of Craven's poat the following:

That the World Economy and Civiliation takes place on 3 different levels.
{the basic analysis was made by Fernand Braudel. That's one of the Greats - same category as Spengler ]

-physical reality [ where the sun shines, where the rain falls, etc]
-the long term [ the human structures ] He used the word 'structures' to denote a variety of organized behaviours, attitudes, and conventions, as well as literal structures and infrastructures. He argued that structures that were built up in Europe during the Middle Ages contributed to the successes of present-day European-based cultures.
-the events [ Obama defeats Romney - that kind of thing ] The history that excites but really, one should not care a great deal about it.

Braudel argued that capitalists have typically been monopolists and not, as is usually assumed, entrepreneurs operating in competitive markets. He argued that capitalists did not specialize and did not use free markets. He thus diverged from both liberal (Adam Smith) and Marxian interpretations. In Braudel's view, under capitalism the state has served as a guarantor of monopolists rather than as the protector of competition usually portrayed. He asserted that capitalists have had power and cunning on their side as they have arrayed themselves against the majority of the population.

And we can see the strategic cooperation of the population fairly clearly. Whether it is a discussion on the legitimacy of Author's Rights or the allowability of blocking advertisements on Youtube, by and large people act as though it is wrong to opt out.

And ironically, the structures themselves are remarkably vulnerable to fairly minute acts of non-cooperation. In reality, the System needs lavish amounts of HELP to continue functioning.


No one is forbidding you to make your owm songs, write your own books, wear stuff w/o trade-marks, and so on and so forth.

Most of what you mention here takes talent, and as I already stated the only way for a human to live a zero impact life would be to revert back to the frontiersman lifestyle.

No, it doesn't. It does NOT require talent to sing, but granted, it does take a bit practise.
Myself, I regularly practise public singing - without putting out a hat for 'donations' and simply walking away if people try to give money.

And it is quite entertaining ro observe public reaction. On one hand - flattering [ and I like it, no denial ] remarks like 'what a beautiful voice' - but on the other hand, downright hostility towards a refusal to accept economic rewards, play the game, for a public service. That's not how things are suppposed to be done.

And in a sense, the hostiles are right - at least from their point of view - because simply IGNORING the game whenever you can is PROFOUNDLY subversive. It's pure Samizdat. Oh, it even works with banking. Try a Credit Union rather than a Credit Card.

Samizdat.
I myself create it,

edit it,
censor it,
publish it,
distribute it, and ...

get imprisoned for it

Vladimir Bukovski


We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful.
We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing.


320px-Ostrowiec_Solidarnosc_20100815.jpg




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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:49:06
Most people don't want to opt out, Darth. We are not a society of Ted Kaczynski's (the vast majority are not, anyway). Most people understand that the elites are a necessary evil, so to speak. We are not complaining about the game... what many of us are complaining about is that the rules of the game keep changing during the game. We are complaining because we send our representatives off (those of us who live in a places that claim representative democracies anyway) and they do not represent. They accept the trust, and power, and then they use it to their own benefit, or to the benefit of only a few (usually those elites with the biggest wallets).

Most people don't mind that the elites have more, what we mind is that they have more, but they don't seem to be happy until they get it all, so they change the rules of the game, during the game. Most of us don't mind those who have taken most of the risk, reaping a larger share of the reward (the reasonable among us anyway), but we certainly have a natural right to expect our own rewards for our own efforts.

The hoi polloi have every right to complain, and if necessary to fight back when the rules keep changing during the game, and we shouldn't have to quit the game (opt out) and let the f**kers (elites) just claim victory.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 13:18:11
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CravenTHC

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:25:10
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Most people don't mind that the elites have more, what we mind is that they have more, but they don't seem to be happy until they get it all, so they change the rules of the game, during the game. Most of us don't mind those who have taken most of the risk, reaping a larger share of the reward (the reasonable among us anyway), but we certainly have a natural right to expect our owe rewards for our own efforts.


Quite a powerful paragraph there. I agree entirely.

I do not care that the Rockefellers exist, but I do care that they would seek to enslave me. For me, it is not the capitalist desire to earn a living and acquire possessions that is evil, but the men at the top of the chain that are never satiated with any amount of resources or power.

Will get to Darth when I'm at work later.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:28:50
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By: Yoshihiro [1244536]
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 13:14:25
I opt for 2 different Poles - Jerzy Popieluszko and Kornel Morawiecki.

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E14-SOLIDER
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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 13:45:51
It's a dog eat dog world, to rule the masses you have to enslave them

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 13:55:56
By E14-SOLIDER [430960]
It's a dog eat dog world, to rule the masses you have to enslave them


We learn history not in order to know how to behave or how to succeed, but to know who we are.

Leszek Koakowski
Theses on Hope and Hopelessness

Solidarity with the poor and marginalized as a constitutive element of the Gospel and human participation in the common good.

Karol Józef Wojtya
Sollicitudo Rei Socialis

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dunmugmeh

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 17:21:27
I have never been into fashion. Ie expensive clothing, i have always bought the cheapest clothes.

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CravenTHC

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 17:22:14
By E14-SOLIDER [430960]
It's a dog eat dog world, to rule the masses you have to enslave them


Umm no you most certainly don't. In fact there are many examples, historically, when progress was at it's peak during times of relative equality among peoples. Slave workers are inefficient, and resent their masters. Free workers are content with their lot, and appreciate what they are paid.

The trick is to have an outward appearance of freedom while the underlying reality is eternal slavery. It is our current system, and without major intervention it will continue to get worse.

By DarthBrogo [21801]
I would answer to the totality of Craven's poat the following:

That the World Economy and Civiliation takes place on 3 different levels.
{the basic analysis was made by Fernand Braudel. That's one of the Greats - same category as Spengler ]

-physical reality [ where the sun shines, where the rain falls, etc]
-the long term [ the human structures ] He used the word 'structures' to denote a variety of organized behaviours, attitudes, and conventions, as well as literal structures and infrastructures. He argued that structures that were built up in Europe during the Middle Ages contributed to the successes of present-day European-based cultures.
-the events [ Obama defeats Romney - that kind of thing ] The history that excites but really, one should not care a great deal about it.

Braudel argued that capitalists have typically been monopolists and not, as is usually assumed, entrepreneurs operating in competitive markets. He argued that capitalists did not specialize and did not use free markets. He thus diverged from both liberal (Adam Smith) and Marxian interpretations. In Braudel's view, under capitalism the state has served as a guarantor of monopolists rather than as the protector of competition usually portrayed. He asserted that capitalists have had power and cunning on their side as they have arrayed themselves against the majority of the population.

And we can see the strategic cooperation of the population fairly clearly. Whether it is a discussion on the legitimacy of Author's Rights or the allowability of blocking advertisements on Youtube, by and large people act as though it is wrong to opt out.

And ironically, the structures themselves are remarkably vulnerable to fairly minute acts of non-cooperation. In reality, the System needs lavish amounts of HELP to continue functioning.



I would have to agree with Braudel, but only in that the mechanisms of capitalism are easily manipulated for the benefit of the rich and powerful. The government was supposed to serve as the intermediary/regulator to prevent monopolies and our current state of affairs. Instead the anti-trust and monopoly laws have left massive loopholes for many to step through. The final death knell of the American way came in the form of the federal reserve act. I believe it was Woodrow Wilson who signed the act, and I hold him in the company of every other traitor that has ever lived. The Central Bank of England is one of the reasons that the revolution happened. The idea that we have had the same problem for almost 100 years now tells me that more blood must be shed. It also tells me that the people have been out of touch with reality for FAR too long.

As for your point on opting out I would question your sources. Pretty much everyone I know uses an ad-blocker on YouTube. It only depends on what context the use of ad-block occurs in. People don't appreciate when you block ads on user generated videos, especially when it is a user that generates their primary income from said revenue source. Nobody gives a rats ass if you use an ad-blocker to watch music videos, or videos from various other incorporated sources.

Minute acts on a continental scale are effective, but if one person from Guildford opts out of the local towel program then nobody will notice a difference.

No one is forbidding you to make your owm songs, write your own books, wear stuff w/o trade-marks, and so on and so forth.


Of course they're not. I'm forbidding me because I abhor the sound of my own voice, much less would I care for others to suffer through it. We could all write our own books, but then what is the point of reading them? Once they're written the story has been experienced. Then the question becomes, "Why did I write that in the first place?" Considering I'm not going to be participating in the serial distribution of said novel/book, what purpose does it serve? I could have just as easily left the story in my head.

On the brand loyalty front, first you must convince said loyalist that the brand he/she is advertising for is inherently evil. Which is easier said than done.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 17:42:14
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By: Yoshihiro [1244536]
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 21:29:47
My point is a bit simpler - if I cannot block your ads, I don't use you other output.
If you want to claim revenue that way, I dont work with you.

I do not think the trend started with central banks.
I think it must be dated at least as far back as Genovese law-reforms, circa 1300.
Probably much esrlier.
The institutions were not manipulated FOR but created BY.

Of course they're not. I'm forbidding me because I abhor the sound of my own voice, much less would I care for others to suffer through it. We could all write our own books, but then what is the point of reading them? Once they're written the story has been experienced. Then the question becomes, "Why did I write that in the first place?" Considering I'm not going to be participating in the serial distribution of said novel/book, what purpose does it serve? I could have just as easily left the story in my head.

If it requires you to be a passive consumer - you can opt out.

The irony of the matter is that 'protected materials' don't last.
The intellectual heritage of our Race is public domain - as in Homer.

The other stuff ain't worth preserving and ISN'T preserved when the sell-by date expires.


I myself create it,

edit it,
censor it,
publish it,
distribute it, and ...

get imprisoned for it

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 22:01:20
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sun Nov 03, 2013 23:41:01
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Most people don't want to opt out, Darth. We are not a society of Ted Kaczynski's (the vast majority are not, anyway). Most people understand that the elites are a necessary evil, so to speak. We are not complaining about the game... what many of us are complaining about is that the rules of the game keep changing during the game. We are complaining because we send our representatives off (those of us who live in a places that claim representative democracies anyway) and they do not represent. They accept the trust, and power, and then they use it to their own benefit, or to the benefit of only a few (usually those elites with the biggest wallets).

Most people don't mind that the elites have more, what we mind is that they have more, but they don't seem to be happy until they get it all, so they change the rules of the game, during the game. Most of us don't mind those who have taken most of the risk, reaping a larger share of the reward (the reasonable among us anyway), but we certainly have a natural right to expect our own rewards for our own efforts.

The hoi polloi have every right to complain, and if necessary to fight back when the rules keep changing during the game, and we shouldn't have to quit the game (opt out) and let the f**kers (elites) just claim victory.


I am very much aware that people don't want to opt out.
They have the choice between accepting the consequences of their choice OR making a different one.

Last Edited: Sun Nov 03, 2013 23:48:09
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 15:41:51
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Most people don't want to opt out, Darth. We are not a society of Ted Kaczynski's (the vast majority are not, anyway). Most people understand that the elites are a necessary evil, so to speak. We are not complaining about the game... what many of us are complaining about is that the rules of the game keep changing during the game. We are complaining because we send our representatives off (those of us who live in a places that claim representative democracies anyway) and they do not represent. They accept the trust, and power, and then they use it to their own benefit, or to the benefit of only a few (usually those elites with the biggest wallets).

Most people don't mind that the elites have more, what we mind is that they have more, but they don't seem to be happy until they get it all, so they change the rules of the game, during the game. Most of us don't mind those who have taken most of the risk, reaping a larger share of the reward (the reasonable among us anyway), but we certainly have a natural right to expect our own rewards for our own efforts.

The hoi polloi have every right to complain, and if necessary to fight back when the rules keep changing during the game, and we shouldn't have to quit the game (opt out) and let the f**kers (elites) just claim victory.


I am very much aware that people don't want to opt out.
They have the choice between accepting the consequences of their choice OR making a different one.


Or we can choose to 'TRY' to hold the elites accountable... if for no other reason, than to amuse ourselves.

I am aware that it is most likely a no win effort in the end, but in the ultimate end, the elites will die just like everyone else, so essentially all any of this is (life) is just a big game, so the elites may as well have their fun trying to have as much stuff as possible, and the the rest of us may as well have our fun bitching about the elites... it all ends the same for everyone anyway... at least in my opinion.


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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 15:53:45
As of yet, I am unconvinced that there is a moral case for us to hold them accountable for the way THEY play THEIR game.
But I am convinced that there is a moral case for me to leave them to their own game.

I do not like their game all that much, and I do know how the design of it works. So I mimimise my participation.

Getting all the goodies is not so much the aim but rather the side-effect from playing it well.
[ Carl Lewis set out for a record.. the endorsements are a side-effect. ]


Coincidentally, elites play among themselves - or rather, elites do not stay the same, but are replaced by other elites. Genua was replaced by Antwerp, Antwerp by Amsterdam[1], Amsterdam by London, London by NYC and NYC is being replaced by... the jury is out on that one. Kongville? Shanghai? Beijing? Too soon to tell.

[1]although there is a good caae that Antwerp-Amsterdam was actually the same people moving due to War.

Last Edited: Mon Nov 04, 2013 16:06:29
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 15:01:49
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Tue Nov 05, 2013 21:10:29
What does the vid say?

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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Wed Nov 06, 2013 02:40:27
By DarthBrogo [21801]
What does the vid say?


It is just a song...

Well they tell me of a pie up in the sky
Waiting for me when I die
But between the day you're born and when you die
They never seem to hear even your cry

CHORUS:
So as sure as the sun will shine
I'm gonna get my share now of what's mine
And then the harder they come the harder they'll fall, one and all
Ooh the harder they come the harder they'll fall, one and all

Well the officers are trying to keep me down
Trying to drive me underground
And they think that they have got the battle won
I say forgive them Lord, they know not what they've done

CHORUS

ooh yeah oh yeah woh yeah ooooh

And I keep on fighting for the things I want
Though I know that when you're dead you can't
But I'd rather be a free man in my grave
Than living as a puppet or a slave

CHORUS

Yeah, the harder they come, the harder they'll fall one and all
What I say now, what I say now, awww
What I say now, what I say one time
The harder they come the harder they'll fall one and all
Ooh the harder they come the harder they'll fall one and all


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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Fri Nov 08, 2013 15:16:18
"It's a kind of spiritual snobbery that makes people think they can be happy without money."
--Albert Camus


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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Nov 08, 2013 18:40:25
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
"It's a kind of spiritual snobbery that makes people think they can be happy without money."
--Albert Camus


To which the Catholic replied: since exactly when is happiness a right?

PS: Camus would fully endorse my don't cooperate-stand.

Last Edited: Fri Nov 08, 2013 23:38:33
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Icedaddy
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Posted on Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:10:20
By DarthBrogo [21801]
As of yet, I am unconvinced that there is a moral case for us to hold them accountable for the way THEY play THEIR game.
But I am convinced that there is a moral case for me to leave them to their own game.

.


Opting out of capitalism isn't a tick the box kind of a deal. Maybe you've found a way out and that's great, but water bills, electricity bills, medical bills, medicine itself, mortgage/rent, etc. These things are going to follow you. It's not like they're playing a game of tag in their own part of the playground. It's more like they're playing bulldog in a library.


You found a wallet with $1,498 in it while walking around the city!

You found the item Pen knife while walking around the city!

You found the item Butterfly Knife while walking around the city!

Merits well spent then?
Forum Main>>Non Related>>Politics & Law>> So why did you chose to cooperate
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