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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 03:14:34
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Darth...

45% of the US budget is entitlements...

www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/08/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2013

That is a bit more than the 3.2% you mention.

We need, and should have a safety net for people in the USA. All I want to see is that the money is being used for necessary needs, and not to pad the coffers of a select few who can game the system.

There are more than enough examples of the fleecing of America, so I am not going to get into specifics, nor do I blame one political party more than the other.

There is plenty of blame to go around.


The rest of it is pensions, disability allowances, and so forth. That makes for 91% of it that you can't cut without casualties of some sort. If you cut those, what are you going to do when you hit 65?

I have always said that I am in favor of a minimum income for every person in the country.
Hayek on Hayek: An Autobiographical Dialogue by F. A. Hayek, edited by Stephen Kresge and Leif Wenar (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994)


What the annoying dunces at Heritage are missing is who the entitlements go to.
Labour pretend there is no noticable increase,the Tories tell you it's due to scroungers, and Accountancy tells you it's the Baby Boomers hitting 65. Just like the Economist warned us all for in '92. Greyification is not going to end tomorrow, so the pattern will continue.

Using a Heritage-report is as pointless as listening to the opinions of Teddy-boy.
It's 50% hog-wash and 50% white-wash.

Heritage World: Goverment Spending is wasting money on the scroungers.
Teddy's World: Government Spending is aiding the poor.
Reality World: 66% of all Government Spending goes straight into the pockets of the richest 1/5 of the Population.{who in all probablity also PAY 66% of those taxes.
Front-pocket back-pocket )

Just as in the article I sent you a while back, Budgets is mostly people fleecing themselves.
Front-pocket back-pocket. This is the part where Selogene Royal and Sarko give you the same analysis,you know? It's independent of ideology.{Francois Hollande should've listened to the Missus.)
An accountancy problem. Which is exactly how I treat it.
Front-pocket back-pocket

And so does the IMF.
It's an inherent and unavoidable feature of Government of, by and for the people.
'No Taxation without Representation'. 1776 and all that.
How many ways can that cookie crumble?
Front-pocket back-pocket.

If you need a blame-object for the current situation:> The Bush tax cuts.
The whole thing is preposterous.
Implement a .4% sales tax, and presto! There is your missing 60BLN.
Front-pocket back-pocket.

Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 04:37:46
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TedThomas

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 08:27:28
Medicare and social security are not "entitlements", they are insurance programs that we pay into our whole working lives. Thats like saying that your car insurance giving you money when wreck your car after you payed into it for 50 years, is an "entitlement".



Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 09:27:28
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TedThomas

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 08:36:51
By DarthBrogo [21801]

Teddy's World: Government Spending is aiding the poor.


When the hell did I say that?

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:06:40
By TedThomas [887131]
By DarthBrogo [21801]

Teddy's World: Government Spending is aiding the poor.


When the hell did I say that?


That's what your world boils down to, kiddo. Social programs, social movements, faith in the American people. Yes, c'st do joli! I'm not even sarcastic about it.

As I tried to explain to MSG a while back, the conception of Safety Net as advocated by Hayek or Friedman is far to the left of anything generally envisaged in America. Guaranteed Basic Incomes are a pretty good idea.But politically, it's a hard sell - it is counter-intuitive. I would not be surprised - haven't checked - that Paul Krugman won't touch it with a 10-feet pole.



But do you get the major idea here?

66% of all Federal spending is money from the front-pocket of the wealthiest 20% to the back-pocket of the wealthiest 20%. It's just like Political Economy 101.

Compared to Hayek, or Friedman,or Krugman, I am an ignorant little lout, but at last I get to learn the basics. Perspective does matter. And so does a couple of years studying the matter. It took me that long to get that Collignon and Moisi and the other Science-Po worthies were not selling moonshine.

Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:14:39
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:05:10
By TedThomas [887131]
Medicare and social security are not "entitlements", they are insurance programs that we pay into our whole working lives. Thats like saying that your car insurance giving you money when wreck your car after you payed into it for 50 years, is an "entitlement".



Right Ted, except those "insurance programs" are forced... rolled into the general budget, and being pissed away in large part.

Nice analogy on the insurance however, but there are major differences... I can pick and choose my insurance carrier. I can choose not to drive, etc., etc. The government just takes the money I pay into the "system", and then it decides when, if, and how much I am allowed to get back... all while it raises the age for me to ever get it back... all while it pays its employees handsome salaries, with great benefits to manage the money we have all sent it over the years... all while the number of people actually paying into it are going down, while the number collecting it are going up... but your analogy is spot on.... NOT!

Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:14:27
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:11:28
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Darth...

45% of the US budget is entitlements...

www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/08/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2013

That is a bit more than the 3.2% you mention.

We need, and should have a safety net for people in the USA. All I want to see is that the money is being used for necessary needs, and not to pad the coffers of a select few who can game the system.

There are more than enough examples of the fleecing of America, so I am not going to get into specifics, nor do I blame one political party more than the other.

There is plenty of blame to go around.


The rest of it is pensions, disability allowances, and so forth. That makes for 91% of it that you can't cut without casualties of some sort. If you cut those, what are you going to do when you hit 65?

I have always said that I am in favor of a minimum income for every person in the country.
Hayek on Hayek: An Autobiographical Dialogue by F. A. Hayek, edited by Stephen Kresge and Leif Wenar (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994)


What the annoying dunces at Heritage are missing is who the entitlements go to.
Labour pretend there is no noticable increase,the Tories tell you it's due to scroungers, and Accountancy tells you it's the Baby Boomers hitting 65. Just like the Economist warned us all for in '92. Greyification is not going to end tomorrow, so the pattern will continue.

Using a Heritage-report is as pointless as listening to the opinions of Teddy-boy.
It's 50% hog-wash and 50% white-wash.

Heritage World: Goverment Spending is wasting money on the scroungers.
Teddy's World: Government Spending is aiding the poor.
Reality World: 66% of all Government Spending goes straight into the pockets of the richest 1/5 of the Population.{who in all probablity also PAY 66% of those taxes.
Front-pocket back-pocket )

Just as in the article I sent you a while back, Budgets is mostly people fleecing themselves.
Front-pocket back-pocket. This is the part where Selogene Royal and Sarko give you the same analysis,you know? It's independent of ideology.{Francois Hollande should've listened to the Missus.)
An accountancy problem. Which is exactly how I treat it.
Front-pocket back-pocket

And so does the IMF.
It's an inherent and unavoidable feature of Government of, by and for the people.
'No Taxation without Representation'. 1776 and all that.
How many ways can that cookie crumble?
Front-pocket back-pocket.

If you need a blame-object for the current situation:> The Bush tax cuts.
The whole thing is preposterous.
Implement a .4% sales tax, and presto! There is your missing 60BLN.
Front-pocket back-pocket.


I don't know what I am going to do when I hit 65, Darth. Because when I hit 65 there won't be anything left.

45% of the budget is entitlements, regardless of the source.

You can call it whatever you like. I don't care.

I don't even care that it is 45%.

What I care about is that it is being mismanaged, wasted, abused, and stolen, and it is very likely that it won't be there when I need it, or my son needs it.




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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:23:05
By MachineGunSteve [184119]

I don't know what I am going to do when I hit 65, Darth. Because when I hit 65 there won't be anything left.

45% of the budget is entitlements, regardless of the source.

You can call it whatever you like. I don't care.

I don't even care that it is 45%.

What I care about is that it is being mismanaged, wasted, abused, and stolen, and it is very likely that it won't be there when I need it, or my son needs it.



I don't think it is being mismanaged, wasted, abused. I rather think that it works exactly as a tax-funded programme is supposed to work under conditions of representative government - a mixture of Lottery and Grabfest which is exactly what people actually vote for! Not having checked the sitation on Rigel IV, I can't pretend it's Universal. But it certainly is a global constant.

Don't worry. The number of people over 65 is increasing. Somebody is bound to propose Bread and Games for them, and it will be enacted - that many Votes! In Western Europe, the life-expectancy of a baby-girl being born today, is about 100 years. You think they're still going to be working when they hit 90?


Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:30:07
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 13:41:02
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By MachineGunSteve [184119]

I don't know what I am going to do when I hit 65, Darth. Because when I hit 65 there won't be anything left.

45% of the budget is entitlements, regardless of the source.

You can call it whatever you like. I don't care.

I don't even care that it is 45%.

What I care about is that it is being mismanaged, wasted, abused, and stolen, and it is very likely that it won't be there when I need it, or my son needs it.



I don't think it is being mismanaged, wasted, abused. I rather think that it works exactly as a tax-funded programme is supposed to work under conditions of representative government - a mixture of Lottery and Grabfest which is exactly what people actually vote for! Not having checked the sitation on Rigel IV, I can't pretend it's Universal. But it certainly is a global constant.

Don't worry. The number of people over 65 is increasing. Somebody is bound to propose Bread and Games for them, and it will be enacted - that many Votes! In Western Europe, the life-expectancy of a baby-girl being born today, is about 100 years. You think they're still going to be working when they hit 90?


I used to work in the Home Healthcare Industry... I currently work at a large university, which receives lots, and lots of federal funding... I am witness to the mismanagement, waste, and abuse of federal money on a daily basis, and have seen it first hand for over 20 years.

Example (please note these numbers are from 1991, so they likely have changed... for the better or for the worse... who knows?): When a wheelchair costs $160 brand new, and a company can deliver, "maintain", and replace (rarely happens) that wheelchair for a Medicare patient at a cost of over $200 a month billed to Medicare, well you do the math on that one. It is called gaming the system. Medicare is mismanaged. Has been since inception, and will continue to be. It sounds nice to say we are helping the elderly, and those who need the help, but the reality is that it is a government program, and as such it is prone and plagued with mismanagement, and that which is being mismanaged is the future of our countries wealth.

That is what I am against.


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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 14:56:39
By MachineGunSteve [184119]


I used to work in the Home Healthcare Industry... I currently work at a large university, which receives lots, and lots of federal funding... I am witness to the mismanagement, waste, and abuse of federal money on a daily basis, and have seen it first hand for over 20 years.

Example (please note these numbers are from 1991, so they likely have changed... for the better or for the worse... who knows?): When a wheelchair costs $160 brand new, and a company can deliver, "maintain", and replace (rarely happens) that wheelchair for a Medicare patient at a cost of over $200 a month billed to Medicare, well you do the math on that one. It is called gaming the system. Medicare is mismanaged. Has been since inception, and will continue to be. It sounds nice to say we are helping the elderly, and those who need the help, but the reality is that it is a government program, and as such it is prone and plagued with mismanagement, and that which is being mismanaged is the future of our countries wealth.

That is what I am against.


You may change back and forth between private healthcare and NHS style, passing through mixed systems every voyage.
And the basic problem persists and is immutable. It is autonomous.
Systems will be gamed. Regardless of their nature.
The only ways of removing it all involve cutting off the basic care as well.


It's in the report too, btw: the basic economies - and wastes, and abuses - of the medical industry derive from human nature, and not from paradigma. It's a wasted effort to try and fix it, although I can observe that every UK Goverment always make a valiant but doomed attempt to do so.

You can't beat the Yes Minister problem and it is wasted effort to try - other than in the daily shower and shave sense, to keep the fleas at bay.

There is no such animal as future wealth. Economy [or wealth] is an amorphous flow rather than a static object or process. Force gets close to it- that is pretty much the Monetarist approach. It also totally defies the top-down approach. Hey, you can even own a tonne of gold,no debts, and still be totally poverty-stricken.

It is the flow of assets. the exchange of it,that matters.
Which brings me back to my assertion that MERCHANTS create wealth,and nothing else.

Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 15:19:10
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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 15:55:43
Ted says I am a quitter because I don't want to continue doing the same old thing, and just allowing the system to be ripped off.

Darth says I need to just accept the system as it is, and just go along with it because that is the best we can expect from a bureaucratic system.

I say nonsense. I say we pay a lot into the system, and we have every right to expect it to function properly, or we should have the right to opt out.

Our system is broken. I am not satisfied. Few are. What to do about it? We can keep on spending more, and getting less, or we can TRY to fix it... or we can let it fail, and then we will all be opted out by default.

What is the point in calling ourselves a democracy if we can't figure out how to compromise a solution to pay our nations debts? We may as well split in two again, a la 1861, and fight it out...

I will be heading to Canada I guess, because I won't have a side.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 16:36:17
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
SNIP
What is the point in calling ourselves a democracy if we can't figure out how to compromise a solution to pay our nations debts? We may as well split in two again, a la 1861, and fight it out...


What do you think a Democracy is but x-million little plebes chanting Me First?
By and large, all other systems you may care to imagine only differ in the proportion of little pettyfoggers chanting Me First.


Much as I may dislike Democracy, I certainly see no point in replacing a million little plebes by 1000 Brass Hats that will behave no better, and probably WORSE, because they will have more power each to give full reign to their individual fancies and desires.



Je meurs de soif auprès de la fontaine
On peut mourir de soif au désert,
même si l'eau coule dans le sol sous nos pieds.

Charles Villon - Duke of Orleans. Circa 1457.



I opt not to die of thirst of the foot of a fountain [just because I'd rather have wine. ]
The water that runs at my feet on the ground will do.
And I'm certainly not stupid enough to pretend it is a desert!


Last Edited: Fri Oct 11, 2013 17:03:02
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TedThomas

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 17:39:47
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By TedThomas [887131]
By DarthBrogo [21801]

Teddy's World: Government Spending is aiding the poor.


When the hell did I say that?


That's what your world boils down to, kiddo. Social programs, social movements, faith in the American people. Yes, c'st do joli! I'm not even sarcastic about it.


So in your twisted head because I said all republicans are doing is cutting social programs while not cutting anything that gives billions of dollars to corporations (AKA, CEOs pockets) and in the end of the 19th century we had things workers rights movements that took power away from the rich running the country, that means that I believe that government spending is aiding the poor?

You need you head checked, you have a screw loose...

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TedThomas

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 17:53:43
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Ted says I am a quitter because I don't want to continue doing the same old thing, and just allowing the system to be ripped off.



No you are a quitter because all you do is complain but you have no actual solutions to anything other than "lets just throw it all away". You dont care about actually fixing anything, you just want to take your ball and go home and screw everybody else.


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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 17:59:41
By TedThomas [887131]
By DarthBrogo [21801]
By TedThomas [887131]
By DarthBrogo [21801]

Teddy's World: Government Spending is aiding the poor.


When the hell did I say that?


That's what your world boils down to, kiddo. Social programs, social movements, faith in the American people. Yes, c'st do joli! I'm not even sarcastic about it.


So in your twisted head because I said all republicans are doing is cutting social programs while not cutting anything that gives billions of dollars to corporations (AKA, CEOs pockets) and in the end of the 19th century we had things workers rights movements that took power away from the rich running the country, that means that I believe that government spending is aiding the poor?

You need you head checked, you have a screw loose...


In my twisted little head, you are a Red.

Get a grip on it: every bit of Social Programming from Rowntree up to Beveridge is the work and ideology of the moneyed Bourgeois Middle Clas - ditto for Chartists. It's their safety net.
Whereas Worker's Initiatives turned out to be fruitless.

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MachineGunSteve

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 18:04:56
By TedThomas [887131]
By MachineGunSteve [184119]
Ted says I am a quitter because I don't want to continue doing the same old thing, and just allowing the system to be ripped off.



No you are a quitter because all you do is complain but you have no actual solutions to anything other than "lets just throw it all away". You dont care about actually fixing anything, you just want to take your ball and go home and screw everybody else.


How about you lick my balls?

You don't know dick about me. All you know is that I don't agree with your leftist nonsense, so therefor I am the enemy. Exactly the kind of uncompromising bullshit that has landed our nation, and most of the world in the f**ked up mess of a situation it is in, and will likely always be in.

I care plenty about fixing all of it, but whenever people point out that there may be a problem with your ilks leftist, socialist, redistribution... we are accused of being crazy, or quitters, or wanting to take our ball and go home. I don't want to take my ball and go home, Ted. I want to jam my ball up your asshole, and then jump all over your head until you are laying in a pool of your own filth.

I served my country brother... what the hell have you ever done?

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TedThomas

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 18:08:54
And what a twisted little head it is.

Hey instead of just constantly name dropping and saying cliche latin phrases to pretend you are smart, how about you actually try saying something of value for once.

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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 20:46:25
By TedThomas [887131]
And what a twisted little head it is.

Hey instead of just constantly name dropping and saying cliche latin phrases to pretend you are smart, how about you actually try saying something of value for once.


That appears the limit of your arguing facilities.
I behold you with amused contempt.




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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 22:27:40
You know what the main problem is this country is? People don't pay attention, to anything actually going on. They pay attention to whatever the media feeds you, and if you haven't noticed - aside from fox news which isn't the most reliable source anyways, Obama controls the media. No one questions anything about him - in fear of what - i dont know. The culture of this country is another big problem. Most people don't have any idea what it means to be American anymore, most people don't have that patriotic pride. It seems it is frowned upon even in most places. I could go through all the problems with people taking advantage of welfare and shit when they are perfectly fine to work - but make more money sitting on their ass than they would actually going out and working - but let's be honest... all the liberals on here would jump down my throat saying im an evil, insensitive prick, so im not going to even open that can of worms. Our tax dollars need to start going towards solutions and not towards making the problem larger than it has already become.

Before people answer and start arguing with me without even knowing my political views - i gave a pretty detailed post about my exact views on the left or right wing thread. I'm a moderate right winger i guess. Some things they are completely against - i dont really care about... other things i have very strong opinions on.

Obama is trying to spend money we don't have. He needs to start thinking about what he was brought in to do in 2008 instead of trying to put us deeper into debt. I realize it is not that simple, but this Obamacare bullshit has a lot of loop holes and there is a lot of unknown. What is the difference if we hold out a year so that the public can better understand what we are getting into with it. All most of us know is what the media puts out about it and it seems they have only scratched the surface of the 2000 page bill. It doesn't affect me, being the im a veteran and i fall under my benefits from the navy, but it will affect my family in one way or another. I just think Obama is trying to push this before anyone knows anything about it because he knows it's a hidden tax, and that he lied about a ton of it already. Every word that comes out of his mouth is pretty much a lie, even about his personal life - another day/another topic. I can go on for pages, but ill end on that note.

For those of you that actually took time to read my thoughts, thank you, the rest - dont even bother answering.

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Tolshortte

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Posted on Fri Oct 11, 2013 23:43:54
the funniest thing about the whole left and right debate is both sides really want the same things. the biggest differences are how they want to go about doing it.

the left wants to convince you that only the govt has the power or knowledge to empower people.

the right want to convince you that you already have that power and joining the left takes it from you.

sad part is it will actually take both to get to where we want to go. corporate mandates concerning employee salaries/benefits need to be implemented. but individual right need to be maintained.

but if u you listen to either side, then its impossible according to them to do it any other way than theirs.

the left are now screaming terms like hostage taking, holding a gun to our heads etc, typical fear mongering.

the right are claiming future disasters of a monumental proportions, typical fear mongering.

and 99% of the idiots out there believe one side or the other. fact is, WE THE PEOPLE have the power to make a real difference by standing UNITED and demanding more.



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CoolHandLuke

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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 01:04:54
Ted
What you should be asking is why dont private companies give as good of benefits as the government (you know, like they used to), not the other way around. We should be shooting for benefits that are closer to the governments so people can actually live off of working a full time job, not trying to make everyone closer to the bare minimum they give at out at Walmart.



lol, is that really a question? if so, you must not be thinking about this question too hard. Let me put this in the every day joe terms.

If you go to the store to buy milk, knowing its from the same dairy went through the same process and goes bad the same day. Would you pay 7.50 for 1 and 15.00 for the other or just buy 2 of the cheaper jugs? Unless you have extra money you can waste im sure you would get twice the bang for your buck.

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dont ruin today by reliving yesterday's problems.
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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 01:15:03
By CoolHandLuke [1582871]
Ted
What you should be asking is why dont private companies give as good of benefits as the government (you know, like they used to), not the other way around. We should be shooting for benefits that are closer to the governments so people can actually live off of working a full time job, not trying to make everyone closer to the bare minimum they give at out at Walmart.



lol, is that really a question? if so, you must not be thinking about this question too hard. Let me put this in the every day joe terms.

If you go to the store to buy milk, knowing its from the same dairy went through the same process and goes bad the same day. Would you pay 7.50 for 1 and 15.00 for the other or just buy 2 of the cheaper jugs? Unless you have extra money you can waste im sure you would get twice the bang for your buck.


But the question must be asked.You do have the equivalent of Working Tax Credits[UK] in the US. ( In Britain, the Left actually introduced that bit of Corporate Wellfare. Both Main Parties compete in handing out Corporate Wellfare ).

That represents costs that have been succesfully externalised by the employer.
I can assure you that Hayek would not be pleased.

Last Edited: Sat Oct 12, 2013 01:20:45
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DarthBrogo

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DarthBrogo [21801]Reply | Quote | Report

Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 14:05:46
online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/WSJNBCpoll10072013.pdf

Read 'em and weep-or-laugh.

Not even Republican voters approve of the way the House Republicans are operating.
The Democrats are getting very mixed report cards for C-averages, the Republicans are getting D's and F's.
That is the difference between Pass and Fail.

Selected Highlights:
Obama
) He is being a strong leader and standing up for
what he believes in .........................................................
46
B) He is putting his own political agenda ahead of
what's good for the country ............................................
51

GOP
They are demonstrating strong leadership and
standing up for what they believe in ...............................
27
B) They are putting their own political agenda ahead of
what is good for the country ...........................................
70


The stings are in the tail.

While significantly more Americans do consider stopping a raise of the National Debt as a more important matter than paying benefits or Federal workers and so on, they sure do NOT like the idea of raising the debt ceiling as contingent upon the defunding ACA. [ That's declaring bankruptcy because you have s dispute over your phone-bill. ]

Overall,people in favour of this linkage are outnumbered by opponents 3:1.

ACA has a narrow margin against, raising the debt ceiling has a narrow margin against it.
Linking the 2 only makes sense to those who oppose BOTH these things.
And that amounts to very very few people indeed.

Last Edited: Sat Oct 12, 2013 14:42:53
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Tolshortte

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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 15:30:45
Darth any poll can be skewed by the sample. Many analysts say this will have little to no effect on the way people vote in the next election as far as voting democrat or republican.

both parties are taking it on the chin, but many believe the American people will do very little differently next election. too many low information voters out there.



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DarthBrogo

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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 16:16:35
By Tolshortte [648554]
Darth any poll can be skewed by the sample. Many analysts say this will have little to no effect on the way people vote in the next election as far as voting democrat or republican.

both parties are taking it on the chin, but many believe the American people will do very little differently next election. too many low information voters out there.


Tollshortte, the article mentioned the consistency with similar polls held by other organisations for other publications. This one was commissioned by the Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303382004579127571975912810?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories


And here is the Gallup of the day before.
www.gallup.com/poll/165317/republican-party-favorability-sinks-record-low.aspx

Republicans More Likely to See Own Party Unfavorably

Self-identified Republicans are more than twice as likely to view their own party unfavorably (27%) as Democrats are to see their own party unfavorably (13%). The GOP's unfavorable rating among Republicans is up eight points from September, compared with a one-point rise in Democratic Party unfavorables among Democrats. These findings may be consistent with the widely circulated narrative that the Republican Party is internally splintered on how best to handle the budgetary negotiations.

Independents, meanwhile, remain unimpressed with both parties: Thirty-two percent view the Democratic Party favorably, while 27% view the Republican Party favorably.

From the report.


The basic tactic problem is the linkage between Debt Ceiling and ACA

Now, barring the undecided, you can divide voters in 4 simplified categories.

A: Hate ACA, Hate Debt
B: Hate ACA, Love Debt.
C: Love ACA, Love Debt
D: Love ACA, Hate Debt.

Now, to which of those 4 groups does a strategy based on 'Hate ACA, Love Debt' appeal?
The answer is B,and B only.
And yet THIS is what the position of the House Republicans amounts to!
That is EXACTLY what they are holding out for.

When the American people are narrowly divided on BOTH issues, then a 3:1 rejection is pretty much what you would expect.

Last Edited: Sat Oct 12, 2013 16:40:37
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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 17:26:21
well I will have to disagree with you Darth. a good portion of the republicans are in favor of the penny plan. a 1% cut across the board in expenditure. then accompanied with a 1% tax increase across the board, the projection is that our debt will be extremely reduced or eliminated in 5-7 years (depending on any new circumstances that may arise).

that is why they are opposing raising the debt ceiling. they are in opposition with our current standard of spending. less govt and all that.

I realize what the reports say, ive read quite a few of them. their results seem to be all over the place. from republicans losing mass voters to very little if any. slightly more favorable for the democrats but still not an overwhelming support despite some reports.

a lot of this boils down to the new health care plan which if u listen to left wing media the people are demanding to have it in masses. yet the last confirmed report was only around 51,000 of 300+million people have actually signed up for it.

the current tactic for both sides is to wait things out to prove the other side wrong. and no matter who is right, if either, the American people are the ones suffering. if you eliminate the democratic and republican brand from the issue the overall rating of approval is approximately 30%(the republicans slightly lower than the dems bringing the average down abit), which is the lowest in history if I recall correctly.

bottom line is, both sides are taking it on the chin, anyone disputing this is falling victim to propaganda. simply look at all the media ratings of recent weeks. they are all on the decline, no matter left wing or right wing their ratings are a good indication that neither side is really winning.

if I somehow misread or misunderstood your point, please reiterate and I will respond accordingly



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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 17:39:02
By Tolshortte [648554]

but many believe the American people will do very little differently next election. too many low information voters out there.

I believe the idiots of America will elect another worthless p.o.s. like we have the next 2 elections. All we need is the right press coverage & a good speach & the sheeple will eat that shit right up.

Only question is, which side is going to Buy Oprah Winfrey, Robert Deniro, & all the other Hollywood hipsters off first to promote there campaign.

I know im putting my head on the chopping block here, But whatever, Dont care anymore. Im sure those of you that have F.B. have seen the video going around where Obama signed a bill that now officially makes protesting Illegal. IF secret service believe's there is a threat present to whatever political representative is present. Yea.. you dumbficks wanted change, well your getting it. Welcome to another step forward to a thing called Socialism.

& before anyone wants to pull race out of there ass as an issue here. THIS INCLUDES ALL WALKS OF LIFE. People protesting KKK rallies, womens rights movements, Immigration from the Latino movement.You name it, it's on there. As long as secret service determines there is a threat present. IT IS ILLEGAL. Yea, welcome to America folks, Land of the free NOT. & home of the gullible.

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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 17:44:48
My point is that offering/demanding No ACA in exchange for raising the debt ceiling is preposterously silly.

How happy does it make you -if you are opposed to more National Debt - that your own Party proposes to do JUST that, PROVIDED another matter which is not that high on your agenda is settled?

The linkage only appeals to that 1 in 4. This is the part where you tick off half of your own base.
And that is without taking into account that the position will fail, which it will do.

Coincidetally: unless US deficit is below 2% of GNP, the penny plan is a half-measure.

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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 18:02:26
By DarthBrogo [21801]
My point is that offering/demanding No ACA in exchange for raising the debt ceiling is preposterously silly.

How happy does it make you -if you are opposed to more National Debt - that your own Party proposes to do JUST that, PROVIDED another matter which is not that high on your agenda is settled?

The linkage only appeals to that 1 in 4. This is the part where you tick off half of your own base.
And that is without taking into account that the position will fail, which it will do.

Coincidetally: unless US deficit is below 2% of GNP, the penny plan is a half-measure.


yea the biggest issue with the repubs atm is their lack of solidarity. they are doing more damage to their own than the dems. I agree with that.

the penny plan isn't my idea. im no economist, and not sure how the money folds over as it passes hands. but I do know that a 1% raise in taxes = much more than 1% flat. as the same dollar changes hands its taxed over and over again. perhaps that's how it was calculated.

Last Edited: Sat Oct 12, 2013 18:05:41


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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 18:16:14
By Tolshortte [648554]


yea the biggest issue with the repubs atm is their lack of solidarity. they are doing more damage to their own than the dems. I agree with that.

the penny plan in my example is only half. the other half was the 1% raise in taxes. sorry I wasn't clearer.


You were clear enough.

Unless the Deficit is below 2.0% GDP, a half-measure. Unless there is some peculiarity at work with the definition of Debt here, reducing the amount of Dollars Owed must be achieved by creating a budget-surplus.

the penny plan isn't my idea. im no economist, and not sure how the money folds over as it passes hands. but I do know that a 1% raise in taxes = much more than 1% flat. as the same dollar changes hands its taxed over and over again. perhaps that's how it was calculated.

TBH,I rather think that someone - not you - is being very economical with the Facts.



Solidarity-within-a-Party is not available when one part of a Party consistently takes the rest of it for a Joyride. The Policy is being sold as "we will oppose both Debt and ACA in ome package".
But if the package is succesfull, the No Debt segment is sold down the river at once.


The average GOP-voter is what Ted Cruz and Paul Ryan think of as a RINO and seem intent on driving them out. If Nixon were alive today, Ted and Paul might very well consider him a RINO.
Purify the RINO out of the Party and you lose half of the Party.
That's how that cookie crumbles.

Labour had a similar problem, a generation ago.
National Executive, under the guidance of Tony Benn, began lambasting and disciplining Party members who did not fully agree with official Party Policy.

Not surprisingly, they left - rather than wait for official 'excommunication'.

The Labour Party was destined never again to reach pre-Purge General Election results in the ensuing 35 years or so - and only became elegible again after repudiating Clause-4, which had pretty much been the Bone of Contention within the Party.

PS. By all means, borrow the Benn Diaries in a library. The man is unintentionally HILLARIOUS.
Having succesfully purged one dissenter on friday, he is totally suprised to receive an 'I QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111!!!!!!!!!!!!' letter from another dissenter on Saturday, and cannot imagine why ANYONE would possibly want to quit the Party.

Last Edited: Sat Oct 12, 2013 18:44:28
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Posted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 18:49:20
I don't argue the issue within the republican party are concerning for those who support that group. my comments were mainly to iterate that the opposition isn't coming out smelling like roses.

and whether or not a half measure, there are bi partisan supporters of it and something is better than nothing. while I would like to see a single plan to fix all problems im not naïve enough to believe there is one, regardless of reports. the mention of it was just to point out that there is opposition in the house of increasing debt.

as I stated earlier, I think both sides have good ideas, and some should be implemented. I just agree with the notion that all of one plan vs all of another is a good approach and the fact that americans are as unwilling to compromise as the politicians that represent them.

I don't personally care if a drug addict dies in the streets for lack of providing for ones self. but I am not opposed to giving that same person a LIMITED time/money offer to get things right again. unfortunately one side wants to cut those programs completely and the other wants to give out unconditional provisions.

thankfully, I do believe we are beginning to see such compromises though. The Michigan governor has implemented time limits on aid while providing them with opportunities such as education to prevent further need. and if it needs stated, this is only for the able mind and body portion. this does not include those who are handicapped before someone starts screaming the 'you should feel bad' speech.



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