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DEA7TH

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Thread created on Fri Feb 07, 2014 13:01:18
Last replied to on Fri Feb 14, 2014 16:10:14
Someone mentioned the hypothesis that the crime experience gain from busting is much much higher than the one from crimes. They also said it was something of a consensus.

Can anyone confirm (or disprove)? Arguments for either direction are welcome, but please don't base them on small datasets - your individual experience analyzed by your ability to recall facts (which is far worse than you think) is probably not good enough to make conclusions about the whole system, even if you have played Torn for years; it can however be a good contribution to the thread. Ideally I'd see big datasets with experimental data, but I'm aware that this is very hard to find in Torn. Observations like what increased your nervebar are welcome.

Also, note that simply looking at a player's crimes and busts, while it has a lot of potential, can also be very dirty work. A failed high-level crime with jail time can reportedly lead to exp loss equivalent to hundreds or thousands of crimes, it is possibly based on a (sizeable) percentage of one's crime exp rather than a flat value. If someone can guarantee they haven't gotten jailed for a lost crime for years, that's fine (still, they might be misremembering or lying). Otherwise, please be careful when using that.

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-Mickey-

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Posted on Fri Feb 07, 2014 20:45:59
The best person to answer this would be Link, since she keeps tracks or everything she and others people do, but unfortunally she havent logged in a few days.

I dont have any data saved, but I have been in many different factions that have sucessfull PA teams and I have seen more than once people with a lot of safe crimes have less CE than people with a couple thousand busts.

Not to mention a certain person that has like 20k arsons warehouses, havent done risky/bad crimes in years, claims to have maxxed crime experience, and yet still has less CE than someone with 3k busts and less than 5k arsons.


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The_Storm

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Posted on Fri Feb 07, 2014 20:52:11
lol Mickey, that person must be a master in PAs!

Im gonna try to hire her to my faction, would be a great aquisition!....

My personal experience is that busts helps a lot in CE, but have the disadvantage of using Energy, that is way more valuable then Nerve to most of players.



Last Edited: Fri Feb 07, 2014 20:54:20
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DEA7TH

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Posted on Fri Feb 07, 2014 23:39:16
Not to mention a certain person that has like 20k arsons warehouses, havent done risky/bad crimes in years, claims to have maxxed crime experience, and yet still has less CE than someone with 3k busts and less than 5k arsons.

How do you know they have less CE? I can't imagine a reliable way of measuring that

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Aurum

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Posted on Fri Feb 07, 2014 23:41:18
By DEA7TH [90220]
Not to mention a certain person that has like 20k arsons warehouses, havent done risky/bad crimes in years, claims to have maxxed crime experience, and yet still has less CE than someone with 3k busts and less than 5k arsons.

How do you know they have less CE? I can't imagine a reliable way of measuring that


put them in an OC together and see who comes out first

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Helvetes-Busta

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Posted on Fri Feb 07, 2014 23:42:27
Busting

Lukaku Oh Lukaku! <3---->No Gay Ting. =D
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Corse

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Posted on Fri Feb 07, 2014 23:51:26
DEA7TH, if you look back through IBB's forum, you'll come across where I was tracking active busters bust counts weekly. I believe it was me, Franky, reptophile and a fair few more. I believe Franky posted everyone's OC outcome. If you look back through, you'll see that I was ranked about 7-8th in terms of CE. Reptophile was busting 50 per week. MightyGoober was about 35 and I was averaging about 350 per week. I rocketed to 2nd in a few weeks. We was all doing arson warehouse.

So look back through and you'll see how well it helps.

Last Edited: Fri Feb 07, 2014 23:52:21



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Barbossa

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Posted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 00:16:48
lol Mickey - nice one

Busting.
Its all about it. Of course you gain CE on crimes, but you'll never be as "fit" as busters if you rely only on crimes (no matter the crimes)
-will edit it more, kind of tired now-

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Nahaz

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Posted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 00:51:36
and the awesome thing about busting, failing doesn't decrease your CE

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DEA7TH

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Posted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 01:52:50
By Aurum [1544641]
By DEA7TH [90220]
Not to mention a certain person that has like 20k arsons warehouses, havent done risky/bad crimes in years, claims to have maxxed crime experience, and yet still has less CE than someone with 3k busts and less than 5k arsons.

How do you know they have less CE? I can't imagine a reliable way of measuring that


put them in an OC together and see who comes out first

Is that even a reliable way to compare CE? Is it tested

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-Mickey-

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Posted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 02:55:15
I suppose you dont read forums much....

Yes it is tested. http://www.torn.com/profiles.php?XID=1413750

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Link

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:27:26
It's not a hypothesis, it's a theory. It's been tried and tested and verified by every faction doing PA's, using OC results to track CE changes. Busting is a vastly superior way to rack up CE fast. Crimes are for merits, busts are for CE.

Edit for the pedant (you know who you are!).

By Theory, I meant in the scientific sense - the explanation for the empirical data that we have. Not "theory" as in "stuff I just pulled out of thin air" (which is the colloquial usage).

Last Edited: Tue Feb 11, 2014 13:05:17
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Ganon

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 13:01:50
By Link [1413750]
It's not a hypothesis, it's a theory. It's been tried and tested and verified by every faction doing PA's, using OC results to track CE changes. Busting is a vastly superior way to rack up CE fast. Crimes are for merits, busts are for CE.


No it's not just a theory as you say actually.
Considering all the data we can safely consider this as empirical knowledge.

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Elena

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 17:57:40
As of now, I'm doing drug deals for the merits, on a 45nnb. I rarely end up with a red result more than once every two days. So, I wonder if by doing 5-10 busts per day, my drug deal reds don't affect my CE at all.

I've got a long way to go (like 3500 drug deals more), but I'll be doing murders after my 5000 drug deals honor. I've heard those are the worst. So if busting really helps that much, I can safely keep my 45nnb and make it stronger by busting, no matter how harmful crimes I'm working on. Correct?

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:11:53
By Elena [1260826]
As of now, I'm doing drug deals for the merits, on a 45nnb. I rarely end up with a red result more than once every two days. So, I wonder if by doing 5-10 busts per day, my drug deal reds don't affect my CE at all.

No one knows the exact amounts, but you do lose a % of your CE with every jail result. So it's not correct to say it wouldn't affect your CE at all, but if you're busting enough (of the right people) in order to make up (or exceed) what the red result cost you (in CE), then you could 'keep up' with the reds or at least stave off a NB drop for awhile.

By Elena [1260826]
So if busting really helps that much, I can safely keep my 45nnb and make it stronger by busting, no matter how harmful crimes I'm working on. Correct?

You'd have to ask bogie or Ohadik (as they've done the most drug deals in the game). I have done 0 drug deals, so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt. bogie & Ohadik were not doing busting (or not much at all) when they were doing their drug deal crimes, and they have said you WILL lose your 45 from doing drug deals. However, as I said, in my opinion, if you do enough busts to 'keep up' with the CE loss from a red result, you should at least be able to keep afloat. No one knows how many is "enough" though as no tests have been done (and I'm certainly not doing them!).

However what you might end up finding during your drug deals is that you're not doing quite enough busting, so the drug deal fails might end up "catching up" to you and you'll drop your NB, just not so immediately (if that makes sense).

In any case, I'd be interested to hear your results through your drug deals and busting balancing!


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bogie

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:25:41
By Link [1413750]
By Elena [1260826]
As of now, I'm doing drug deals for the merits, on a 45nnb. I rarely end up with a red result more than once every two days. So, I wonder if by doing 5-10 busts per day, my drug deal reds don't affect my CE at all.

No one knows the exact amounts, but you do lose a % of your CE with every jail result. So it's not correct to say it wouldn't affect your CE at all, but if you're busting enough (of the right people) in order to make up (or exceed) what the red result cost you (in CE), then you could 'keep up' with the reds or at least stave off a NB drop for awhile.

By Elena [1260826]
So if busting really helps that much, I can safely keep my 45nnb and make it stronger by busting, no matter how harmful crimes I'm working on. Correct?

You'd have to ask bogie or Ohadik (as they've done the most drug deals in the game). I have done 0 drug deals, so take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt. bogie & Ohadik were not doing busting (or not much at all) when they were doing their drug deal crimes, and they have said you WILL lose your 45 from doing drug deals. However, as I said, in my opinion, if you do enough busts to 'keep up' with the CE loss from a red result, you should at least be able to keep afloat. No one knows how many is "enough" though as no tests have been done (and I'm certainly not doing them!).

However what you might end up finding during your drug deals is that you're not doing quite enough busting, so the drug deal fails might end up "catching up" to you and you'll drop your NB, just not so immediately (if that makes sense).

In any case, I'd be interested to hear your results through your drug deals and busting balancing!


It's not just a case of you will lose your 45 from drug deals you should WANT to lose your 45 from drug deals...

If you're doing those kinds of crimes there is no compromise, for a start they're actually easier on a lower nerve bar (You can get your nerve UP to 30 doing them if it's below that point) and by the time you're finished with them it's very likely that is where you will end up.

Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...

Last Edited: Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:27:06
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Elena

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:28:53
I believe that the big amount of greens I receive from drug deals will be able to add some CE points from those lost by the one red result that I receive every second day. Well, if the theory in this thread is right, then I can most likely keep my 45nnb. If you think about it, I've done around 500 busts during my 1500 drug deals.
I'll keep busting and transporting cocaine, I hope I remember to reply to this thread in a while.

What do you mean by "busting enough of the correct people"?

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ColdDeadFingers

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:39:50
Level 5 in jail for 30 minutes=not much crime exp
Level 80 in jail for 8 hours= a lot more crime exp

That's what they mean by the right kind of people.

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Elena

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:40:00
By bogie [148747]
It's not just a case of you will lose your 45 from drug deals you should WANT to lose your 45 from drug deals...

If you're doing those kinds of crimes there is no compromise, for a start they're actually easier on a lower nerve bar (You can get your nerve UP to 30 doing them if it's below that point) and by the time you're finished with them it's very likely that is where you will end up.

Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...


Thanks for the reply. I see your point. However, I've only started aiming for crime honors for the past year and I've had my 45nnb for more than that. So starting doing them at a low nnb isn't an option for me.

Secondly, I don't believe busting is a waste of energy at all. I'm going for the busting awards and merits as well, just not as seriously as the crimes. I never bust if I've got enough energy to train a set (25E per train at my current gym). I bust when I'm checking torn and am left with less energy after I train or something. (Also I only need 5E per bust)
The matter of "wasted energy" varies depending on perspective, really. I want to bust so I'm using some of my energy on it. You might think it's a waste, I don't. I've spent energy searching in the dump until I found 5000 trash. It wasn't a waste, as I achieved my honor bar. Some people may think that fighting for wars is a waste of their energy. I don't think so, since I'm actually enjoying battling for my faction. To me, my energy isn't being wasted. It could be put to a better use, but even that varies through perspective. You see my point?


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bogie

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:53:54
By Elena [1260826]
By bogie [148747]
It's not just a case of you will lose your 45 from drug deals you should WANT to lose your 45 from drug deals...

If you're doing those kinds of crimes there is no compromise, for a start they're actually easier on a lower nerve bar (You can get your nerve UP to 30 doing them if it's below that point) and by the time you're finished with them it's very likely that is where you will end up.

Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...


Thanks for the reply. I see your point. However, I've only started aiming for crime honors for the past year and I've had my 45nnb for more than that. So starting doing them at a low nnb isn't an option for me.

Secondly, I don't believe busting is a waste of energy at all. I'm going for the busting awards and merits as well, just not as seriously as the crimes. I never bust if I've got enough energy to train a set (25E per train at my current gym). I bust when I'm checking torn and am left with less energy after I train or something. (Also I only need 5E per bust)
The matter of "wasted energy" varies depending on perspective, really. I want to bust so I'm using some of my energy on it. You might think it's a waste, I don't. I've spent energy searching in the dump until I found 5000 trash. It wasn't a waste, as I achieved my honor bar. Some people may think that fighting for wars is a waste of their energy. I don't think so, since I'm actually enjoying battling for my faction. To me, my energy isn't being wasted. It could be put to a better use, but even that varies through perspective. You see my point?


I see yours, but you didn't see mine. I wasn't saying busting is a waste of energy at all (I do busting too with pert 5), I'm saying it's a waste of energy to do so whilst doing drug crimes... as you're losing out on crime experience by doing it that way...

I'd had my 45 nerve bar for years too when I started doing drug crimes, wasn't long before it's lost... I wasn't saying you should be deliberately going out of your way to fail and get a lower nerve bar... I was saying that it will happen whether you like it or not an that when it does you'll find you will be succeeding more with the consequential lower nerve bar you end up with... you'd be surprised how quickly your CE drops when doing those crimes.

It makes no difference whether you try to save the nerve bar or build it back up afterwards... but it will be far more efficient (you'll be gaining MORE crime CE overall... or losing less I should say) if you focus on rebuilding after doing the drug crimes rather than during.

Last Edited: Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:58:28
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Elena

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 19:58:14
Oh, well that's bad news

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bogie

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 20:01:30
By Elena [1260826]
Oh, well that's bad news


Please don't let me destroy this goal for you, if you want to go for it then definitely do it! It's an extremely rare award to have (less than 100 players in the game with it I believe?) and looks pretty neat too... if anything it's best to get it done sooner rather than later If you're giving it some serious thought then definitely do it! The sooner you get it done the sooner you can get your CE back!

It's a game at the end of the day, focus on what you want from it I'm merely telling you what will happen down this particular path, I'm in no way trying to deter you from it... least not intentionally

Last Edited: Tue Feb 11, 2014 20:02:16
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Link

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 20:17:53
By ColdDeadFingers [1043426]
Level 5 in jail for 30 minutes=not much crime exp
Level 80 in jail for 8 hours= a lot more crime exp

That's what they mean by the right kind of people.


That's not what I meant, so please don't speak for me. Everyone has their own theory as to what constitutes the 'right kind of people' my theory is here: http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=3&ID=16012329&start=0#16012683

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Elena

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 21:37:51
By bogie [148747]
By Elena [1260826]
Oh, well that's bad news


Please don't let me destroy this goal for you, if you want to go for it then definitely do it! It's an extremely rare award to have (less than 100 players in the game with it I believe?) and looks pretty neat too... if anything it's best to get it done sooner rather than later If you're giving it some serious thought then definitely do it! The sooner you get it done the sooner you can get your CE back!

It's a game at the end of the day, focus on what you want from it I'm merely telling you what will happen down this particular path, I'm in no way trying to deter you from it... least not intentionally


Oh I'm not planning on giving up! I want all them crime honors All them honors in general to be honest

By Link [1413750]
my theory is here: http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=3&ID=16012329&start=0#16012683

That's an interesting theory. The problem now is though that finding multiple targets in jail is so rare. And I am a very impatient buster as well. I wish there was a way to test this out.

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 21:47:04
By bogie [148747]
Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...


I've seen a fair bit of speculation that older players aren't able to get their nerve bars up as fast. If that were true it adds an extra wrinkle to what you're saying.

Do you think the theory of age somehow being a variable is ridiculous?

Last Edited: Tue Feb 11, 2014 21:49:40
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bogie

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Posted on Tue Feb 11, 2014 21:55:53
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
By bogie [148747]
Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...


I've seen a fair bit of speculation that older players aren't able to get their nerve bars up as fast. If that were true it adds an extra wrinkle to what you're saying.

Do you think the theory of age somehow being a variable is ridiculous?


With Torn's system who knows Certainly not unreasonable to assume, but I doubt it personally.

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-Mickey-

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Posted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 00:22:27
By Elena [1260826]
As of now, I'm doing drug deals for the merits, on a 45nnb. I rarely end up with a red result more than once every two days. So, I wonder if by doing 5-10 busts per day, my drug deal reds don't affect my CE at all.

I've got a long way to go (like 3500 drug deals more), but I'll be doing murders after my 5000 drug deals honor. I've heard those are the worst. So if busting really helps that much, I can safely keep my 45nnb and make it stronger by busting, no matter how harmful crimes I'm working on. Correct?


There is a murder crime that has no reds and there is another that hosps you and actually is decent CE, so I dont know where you heard that. (its the first and the last one, but right now I cant remember which is which)

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Posted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 00:28:51
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
By bogie [148747]
Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...


I've seen a fair bit of speculation that older players aren't able to get their nerve bars up as fast. If that were true it adds an extra wrinkle to what you're saying.

Do you think the theory of age somehow being a variable is ridiculous?


There were people (old people) that after SB was removed got their 45s in around 400 days, so I dont think there is any connection between age and crime experience.

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ReyDuvall

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Posted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 01:18:07
By -Mickey- [511384]
By ReyDuvall [1526820]
By bogie [148747]
Because of this your nerve bar will reach a point of stability on the 30 and that's where you should be aiming for... Trying to keep your nerve bar up is just a total waste of crime experience... as you're basically just pissing away larger amounts due to a higher amount being taken from the fail as it seems to be a percentage loss... save the energy, focus all nerve on drug deals and get them done as fast as possible... seriously... it's going to be easier and much more efficient in terms of nerve/energy to build your nerve bar back up to 45 than it will ever be to try and keep it from falling in the first place...


I've seen a fair bit of speculation that older players aren't able to get their nerve bars up as fast. If that were true it adds an extra wrinkle to what you're saying.

Do you think the theory of age somehow being a variable is ridiculous?


There were people (old people) that after SB was removed got their 45s in around 400 days, so I dont think there is any connection between age and crime experience.


The self busters I've talked to had a long hard road back to 45. Perhaps I just haven't talked to enough of them.

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Posted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 09:20:59
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By ColdDeadFingers [1043426]
Level 5 in jail for 30 minutes=not much crime exp
Level 80 in jail for 8 hours= a lot more crime exp

That's what they mean by the right kind of people.


That's not what I meant, so please don't speak for me. Everyone has their own theory as to what constitutes the 'right kind of people' my theory is here: http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=3&ID=16012329&start=0#16012683


Funny, I've always considered the same thing, that people with higher CE make for better busts... so you're usually better off busting other people caught busting.

If I could add a small detail about the correlation to self busting though. Self busting originally gave 0.1% more dex, but was reduced at one point to 0.05%... So assuming the same set up for busting and CE, I would also assume the gain is 0.1% since there would be no reason to reduce the effects.

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Posted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 09:29:46
Thanks Jimmy! Not having done self busting obviously I was not exactly sure on the % there. Can you offer your insight into the claim above regarding difficulty getting back a 45 after having done self busting? To my view, I don't see why it would be so, but yeah, not my area of knowledge

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Forum Main>>General Discussion>> CE gain from busting relative to gain from crimes
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