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Landy-

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Thread created on Sat Aug 17, 2013 19:22:21
Last replied to on Wed Aug 21, 2013 19:19:58
Has Torn long lost all etiquette and what is frowned upon by the majority?

The mail below is in order (read top to bottom)

2013-08-17
3:21:25 PM DB_farid says: Want to join a better faction?

2013-08-17
4:33:40 PM Cruelty says: You're asking a co-leader that question? Let alone the fact I believe this to be the best faction suited to me.

Shame on you and your tactics, ask people that post in recruitment threads.

2013-08-17
4:40:51 PM DB_farid says: If you are talking about those. Well we left those about 4 months behind and now we are on a very long training break. And I really don't think we will do those as we are getting stronger each day. And when the new warring system will come up, we would be one of the top faction. And yes I asked you even though you were co-leader because ther isn't really much difference if the faction you are in is small or inactive. Like o recruited vulpes co-leader and he is happy here.

And I think you should update your views mate. We had wars with few hof and also with Mercs before we went on full training course. And now we really aren't a subject of this.

2013-08-17
5:02:52 PM Cruelty says: Ahaha, yea i actually lol'd. You silly twat!

I was referring to your individual recruitment tactics. Talk about defensive/guilty conscience!

You merely have poor etiquette, bye.

2013-08-17
5:48:57 PM *Current message you are reading*
DB_farid says: Ok I didn't saw that comma.
*Current message you are reading*


Having this conversation made me realise/wander all the more about what has happened to Torn.
Morals and etiquette are no longer really practices of the newer player. I am not exactly old myself but I was present in the times where the older players pretty much governed and would criticise (quite rightly) those that used somewhat lowering tactics or messed up.
Coaxing members (even those with stature and stake in a faction) and thinking nothing of it, people believing upgrades, member count and stats are what makes a good faction......Not loyalty, community, teamwork and general having fun and bonding.

Real life example of how morales deteriorate:
I come from a rough area of Wales (UK), when I grew up there was somewhat honour amongst thieves (I am far from having a criminal background/chav/troublemaker). You don't steal from old/infirmed, kids knew respect for adults and older kids. Break the rules and the neighbourhood would chase you out of there or you get shit beat out of you.

However in recent years there was a woman that had a job in a nursing home, she stole money and was even recorded to move a zimmer frame from a resident to stop them from calling help, rendering them unable to leave the room, bed ridden and then left. She was caught and imprisoned (hardly served what was deserved though). Yet she was able to live within 5 minutes walk of those she stole from and everyone somewhat forgot her crimes and let her live there. No 'street justice' or justice at all in my eyes.


Torn no longer brandishes it's own critic of behaviour as the community once would.
A faction co-leader will leave there faction for the sake of upgrades. In the conversation above a sense of pride and bragging as they recruited someone of position.....and to be honest, I would hardly give any credit to DB_farid for recruiting someone that would jump ship for upgrades if that was the case.
I would not want someone that clearly seems to have no loyalty, your stats and chaining prowess mean shit if you bounce around giving no shits for anything.

"Want to join a better faction?"............I mean wow, you really enticed with your opening statement there. -_-

The quick defense presented by DB_farid shows me that they believe that their tactics of war (in past) were low and cheap in their own head. That didn't even factor in my head when reading the 'invitation'.


Points to discuss:
Do we need morals/principles at all here?....It's a crime game!
Yes, it's a crime game and such. I myself can be harsh within the forums if someone messes up, I had it myself and I feel like it's paying dues and learning the hard way, part of what was the essence of the game, maybe.

Is there any sort of general consensus here? (What's not acceptable)
I know a lot of people saying scamming is wrong and that in itself shows there still is some sort of general frown on those that do it. But I mean, that does really hinder people and it's been discussed so many times, please don't do it again here. Please sway more towards the conduct of people and morales associated in small actions and the words they say.

Is Torn a reflection of modern society? Natural progression and game tactics evolution?
A bit deep, but youth these days receive a lot of negative press and are perceived as to being unruly and immoral/dishonourable thugs. Seems that the equivalent happens here.

I know this can come across a bit confusing and it may be hard to see my point.....even long too but I think it can create some good discussion.


Note: My name is Cruelty, I can be harsh and do reflect my name at times and have a somewhat game persona, but some real life lessons should surely reflect your account here, right? There is a limit? Some shame?
I am also not blind to the fact that everyone has a different background and such things vary just as players and there location varies.

I weren't really sure where to put this due to it being presented through a mail regarding Factions but it's not really about that if you see what I am saying.

10 points if you read all of this post!!!!


Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:38:58
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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:27:34
It's crime game where brevity and clarity can help your cause when communicating with other players . A strength of his pm to you, and a shortcoming in your OP.

It's kinda all over the map :/

(And on mobile, the OP is a bit much to scroll through)

Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:28:25
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^^ Only one left in stock!

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Landy-

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:30:15
By 0ffline [1372001]
It's crime game where brevity and clarity can help your cause when communicating with other players . A strength of his pm to you, and a shortcoming in your OP.

It's kinda all over the map :/

(And on mobile, the OP is a bit much to scroll through)


Shame, if you were able to/did scroll down you would have seen I made your point myself!
Thanks for the input though.

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:31:02
You want some form of gang-chivalry/ mafia thing? Probably expect that in real life, might not work here since most people remain anonymous, so that initial "shame" isn't really a problem... I think

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Landy-

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:34:23
By XxRiskyxX [1461835]
You want some form of gang-chivalry/ mafia thing? Probably expect that in real life, might not work here since most people remain anonymous, so that initial "shame" isn't really a problem... I think


Hm, more is a general community right and wrongs missing? Obviously not everyone would ever abide by and it would not be actual game rules. But wouldn't the majority follow regardless? Purely because that is what they deem right....
Yeah, at the same time, this is escapism, but normally some personal principles and codes of conduct from someone's real life would reflect through their game actions. No?

Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:35:31
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jamesbond

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:35:20
Enjoyed the thread

Last Edited: Sat Aug 24, 2013 04:40:47
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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:38:31
Do we need morals/principles at all here?....It's a crime game!

I agree with what you said, it's a crime game and we all need to learn, otherwise you won't survive here, plain and simple. I think some morals also need to be there otherwise you will only make enemies. (gotta get along to go along)



Is there any sort of general consensus here?

Not sure what your really asking here, as what you're asking is do we have any general agreement? Do you mean do we all agree scamming is bad and we should all have good morals? If so, it's all down to personal opinion, it's only a game afterall.



Is Torn a reflection of modern society? Natural progression and game tactics evolution?

Defiantly a reflection of modern society. I agree completely, won't go into this too much

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:42:36
Generally, yes I agree that some principles should follow through even if it is a game. Probably see it in the older players, but to be honest, the most basic principle is being followed; I don't get a lot of people being a complete ass when they talk to me here on torn (I may have jinxed myself saying that), and that's fair, it's what I expect. I also acknowledge the fact that on the off chance there are people that can be complete twats, it happens :/

Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:44:00
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Landy-

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:43:27
By Pitbull [1416665]
Is there any sort of general consensus here?

Not sure what your really asking here, as what you're asking is do we have any general agreement? Do you mean do we all agree scamming is bad and we should all have good morals? If so, it's all down to personal opinion, it's only a game afterall.


I edited so that it makes more sense, aha, thanks, it made little sense to me when reading back.

I am not saying we should allll have good absolute morals, but is there a line other than scamming type thing.
It's hard to explain as it is all perceptual.



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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:45:06
By Cruelty [969080]
By Pitbull [1416665]
Is there any sort of general consensus here?

Not sure what your really asking here, as what you're asking is do we have any general agreement? Do you mean do we all agree scamming is bad and we should all have good morals? If so, it's all down to personal opinion, it's only a game afterall.


I edited so that it makes more sense, aha, thanks, it made little sense to me when reading back.

I am not saying we should allll have good absolute morals, but is there a line other than scamming type thing.
It's hard to explain as it is all perceptual.



You'll never get everyone good morals when humanity can hide behind communication. Such as when we can say things with confidentiality, humanity becomes cruel. Recently i know theres has been a huge increase in suicide to 'cyber-bullying'. I could go into detail but it society and man-kind in general boils my blood

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:48:39
By Pitbull [1416665]
You'll never get everyone good morals when humanity can hide behind communication. Such as when we can say things with confidentiality, humanity becomes cruel. Recently i know theres has been a huge increase in suicide to 'cyber-bullying'. I could go into detail but it society and man-kind in general boils my blood


I am somewhat a realist, that would never happen and that's more than easy to accept although maybe saddening to some.
Make a good point there, the fact you will never have to meet anyone here unless you wanted to does help some loosen up a little. It's just in certain cases I would still feel bad myself or have some conscience.

Hah, yeah let's not go that route!
Society/mankin are messed, can only take comfort in the realisation of how bad it is.

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Beerstein

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:55:20
By jamesbond [1337797]
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^^^This is what torn needs, Mattyb was a fair unbiased mod which is actually pretty rare. MattyB the incorruptible!

Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 20:55:48
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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:09:20
I alway find it amusing when n00bs ask me to join their loser factions. Here's a hint. If I've taken more xanax than your entire faction has, chances are I'm not interested.

As regards your general post theme, I generally try to limit my interaction with the Torn 'community' to a little as possible, beyond the forums.



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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:19:30
By Cruelty [969080]
2013-08-17
3:21:25 PM DB_farid says: Want to join a better faction?


I will agree that is a bit of an offensive question but english is not his first language (I hope). I hardly fault him for trying to recruit you though. There is nothing wrong with that.

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:22:52
2013-08-17
4:40:51 PM DB_farid says: we would be one of the top factions


Xd

Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:24:33
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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:23:23
Quoted instead of edited



Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:24:10
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Landy-

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:24:14
By Penicillin [1517799]
By Cruelty [969080]
2013-08-17
3:21:25 PM DB_farid says: Want to join a better faction?


I will agree that is a bit of an offensive question but english is not his first language (I hope). I hardly fault him for trying to recruit you though. There is nothing wrong with that.


I know it's not (Indian, I think), nor do I think he meant to be so rude about it, but I can only judge him by what he says and what he does. Here it can affect everything, from trading to warring. The arrogance did seem to be intended.
Will admit, it's flattering to be invited to a faction, especially as it seems IBB have shut up their doors a little.
It was all the more the message that followed about how he had already done it, saw nothing wrong with it and came across big-headed in doing it.
Only sparked my to think more about Torn as a whole, not just him by a long shot!

Last Edited: Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:27:01
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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:27:24
By Alex- [435186]
2013-08-17
4:40:51 PM DB_farid says: we would be one of the top factions


Xd


Exactly what i was just about to quote! .. Luff yew Alex.

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:29:20
By Alex- [435186]
2013-08-17
4:40:51 PM DB_farid says: we would be one of the top factions


Xd


Hahaha, yeah, not blind to bullshit either, almost propaganda.

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:35:48
I get people trying to poach me from my company all the time...lol

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t0ffa

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:36:56
the op should blame more the community that doesn't use forums at all, apart a resticted group. if i had a faction like farid i would rather try to recruit individually... i doubt that these days would be easy to recruit even 10 persons via forum recruiment, and if you do they would rather join cause the faction have got more perks, or things like that . same goes with companies


about loyalty it seems to be gone with peacefull factions, and mediocre warring systems exploited by several factions,raising their benefits and killing the rest.

sorry for the poor english

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:37:15
I have experienced the entire gamut of ideals presented by your OP. I enjoy loyal faction members that have stuck with me through thick and thin, that don't really care about better specials because of the familial bond that we share. I also have met IRL friends in game, and we watch each other's backs when it comes to a great many things.

We've had offers from larger factions, and we have always simply explained to them that we will contact them when we're interested, if ever, in making that kind of move. Yes I find it a bit backward for them to be offering membership to a co-leader, or for me as a leader myself. What you said about loyalty makes too much sense in this case. Why would this faction want people that are little more than vagrants jumping ship whenever a bigger pot of gold is dangled in their face? If that's truly the foundation on which their faction is built then it's pretty shaky to say the least. I personally would not want to be a part of that kind of organization.

I've also had an experience I'd like to forget with a scammer. As you said it's not something that most people around would take kindly to, but what struck me as odd is that those players surrounding the scammer himself, who were unaffected by his plot, really didn't care much about continuing to be friends with that type of person. I contacted the scammer's faction leader who somewhat impolitely rebuffed me offering simply to repay the money lost. I informed him that the money was not important, but that this person did not deserve the relative safety and respect that being in a faction allows. I suggested that he be kicked, as I know that I would quickly and harshly kick any member of my faction found to have scammed. Apparently this leader didn't much care about the reputation of his faction, or how his members acted.

I also contacted the director of the company he worked for who simply didn't understand why she would "punish herself" for having a scammer among her employees. Which really struck me as odd. Firing one employee to uphold a greater sense of honor and morality was somehow not enough for this director to lose out on a few hundred thousand daily income.

To conclude I would say that this is very much a reflection of society, but more-so it is a symptom of online gaming. Even when no games are involved, and it's simply forums or comments people still disconnect their moral filters because of the anonymity that the internet affords. Others simply choose not to make the connection between their real morals and the character that they portray in games. Somewhat akin to the gamers that choose an evil, or dark, path when building their character. For whatever reason I have always had much more fun in being the "knight in shining armor" so-to-speak. Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I'm no expert.

If you find others with actual morals and values here in this game I suggest you befriend them quickly.

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Landy-

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:52:21
By t0ffa [692719]
the op should blame more the community that doesn't use forums at all, apart a resticted group. if i had a faction like farid i would rather try to recruit individually... i doubt that these days would be easy to recruit even 10 persons via forum recruiment, and if you do they would rather join cause the faction have got more perks, or things like that . same goes with companies


about loyalty it seems to be gone with peacefull factions, and mediocre warring systems exploited by several factions,raising their benefits and killing the rest.

sorry for the poor english


His mail only sparked this topic, the thoughts were there before his mail.
Granted, I am all too familiar with unable to recruit via forum, it is hard, but more builds my point in opposed to be my main point.

Would anyone say that loyalty has only gone due to pressures of being competitive or is this the case of chicken or the egg?.....More upgrades being common, everyone striving for better faction to increase their competitiveness and making loyalty pointless if you want to progress.
Saying that, it could depend on what they think is more important to them, competitive or community/loyalty.

I could probably forgive most things from you t0ff

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:55:07
i dont blame the guy for trying to recruit new people, if I saw someone who i would like to come join the faction im in ID defo say more than its a better faction, but however if he just asking random people which it looks like then its a bit pathetic

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 21:55:37
By CravenTHC [1569996]
To conclude I would say that this is very much a reflection of society, but more-so it is a symptom of online gaming. Even when no games are involved, and it's simply forums or comments people still disconnect their moral filters because of the anonymity that the internet affords. Others simply choose not to make the connection between their real morals and the character that they portray in games. Somewhat akin to the gamers that choose an evil, or dark, path when building their character. For whatever reason I have always had much more fun in being the "knight in shining armor" so-to-speak. Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I'm no expert.

If you find others with actual morals and values here in this game I suggest you befriend them quickly.



Yeah, kinda like what Pitbull pointed out (anonymous through online) and me thinking it's perhaps pure escapism. Thanks, a good insight and view.

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 22:00:21
Being a faction owner (non-HoF) I get mailed a lot about joining certain HoF factions. I don't really take it as an insult, they are just looking for members to help progress themselves, just as I am.

It is a little weird that they would mail me, being the Leader of a faction, but to say it bothers me? Not at all.

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Melbux

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 22:03:57

Its only a game, we shouldn't take that things too serious. Everyone just play their way, not everyone will behave here the same like irl.

Last Edited: Sun Aug 18, 2013 09:26:56
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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 22:12:20
By Cruelty [969080]
By t0ffa [692719]
the op should blame more the community that doesn't use forums at all, apart a resticted group. if i had a faction like farid i would rather try to recruit individually... i doubt that these days would be easy to recruit even 10 persons via forum recruiment, and if you do they would rather join cause the faction have got more perks, or things like that . same goes with companies


about loyalty it seems to be gone with peacefull factions, and mediocre warring systems exploited by several factions,raising their benefits and killing the rest.

sorry for the poor english


His mail only sparked this topic, the thoughts were there before his mail.
Granted, I am all too familiar with unable to recruit via forum, it is hard, but more builds my point in opposed to be my main point.

Would anyone say that loyalty has only gone due to pressures of being competitive or is this the case of chicken or the egg?.....More upgrades being common, everyone striving for better faction to increase their competitiveness and making loyalty pointless if you want to progress.
Saying that, it could depend on what they think is more important to them, competitive or community/loyalty.

I could probably forgive most things from you t0ff


the competitive part of the game helped lowering moralty bars, but i can see why it's going that way...it's a game designed rather for new comers then persons that are here since ages,letting them slowly quit. i would assume that mayority of old timers is still here for ingame friendship , or the low lack of time that takes going through a random routine. and i can't see it getting better..i m sure there are tons of persons like you that prefer the community part of the game at the competitive, even if seems that the game doesn't push that way.. i consider myself lucky with a group that is a family first

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 22:12:47
10 points for me

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 22:19:50
By t0ffa [692719]
the competitive part of the game helped lowering moralty bars, but i can see why it's going that way...it's a game designed rather for new comers then persons that are here since ages,letting them slowly quit. i would assume that mayority of old timers is still here for ingame friendship , or the low lack of time that takes going through a random routine. and i can't see it getting better..i m sure there are tons of persons like you that prefer the community part of the game at the competitive, even if seems that the game doesn't push that way.. i consider myself lucky with a group that is a family first


Hit a nail or two on the head for me there. Sadly the influence of the older (maybe in real life and game age) player is dwindling and as it does, so does community and certain ways of conducting game actions. Only 22 myself I can see it.

Been at 2.0 myself, and will point out that it was the 2nd best faction (I'm a co-leader, remember, lol) I've been in, both chaining and community: IRC and forum are brilliant.

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Posted on Sat Aug 17, 2013 22:20:29
By Nuclear_ [827175]
10 points for me


+10 to this guy!

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