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Aurum

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 01:07:14
By -Clansdancer [65306]
I will just talk around you


This is yet another perfect example of the disgusting, rude and useless "customer service" Torn offers to their users.

I have tried to start a proper discussion asking people who this topic relates to for their opinions on how these new changes may have effected the relationship between admins and players due to admins unnecessarily changing rules that will have no positive outcome on the game.

Instead of being able to have a proper discussion, I am accused of assuming things as well as not doing research on the topic at hand... Do you not think I wouldn't be posting if I didn't know about what effect the new rules have?!

As stated several times above, this will not stop the people who break the rules already. Please may I have some kind of response aimed at this particular sentence.

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Mauk

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 01:19:47
Apparently we are just looking for arguments instead of trying to improve clarity on the matter, Kiki.

Too bad I failed to expose legit questions in my first post. I was really interested in the rules, public, at last..

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Shadow15

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 01:40:45
Huh?

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Danny

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 04:52:34
By -Clansdancer [65306]
1. Post attack links - For example I hosp Hydro and his bot post in his faction channel I hosped him - ' Hit Clansdancer for a retal' and post an attack link for me to be attacked by someone in his faction.

Please note on this you are only assured you are doing it within the rules if you go straight through your warbase to hosp someone on your warbase. This is how the game is intended to be played, do so.


Wait, if I want to attack someone for the retaliation bonus, I will generally click on their name in the faction war logs, and attack them from their profile page. Is this now against the rules? It would make little sense to have to load the warbase just to attack someone.

Last Edited: Sat Aug 03, 2013 04:53:17
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Para

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:49:15
By Danny [12503]
By -Clansdancer [65306]
1. Post attack links - For example I hosp Hydro and his bot post in his faction channel I hosped him - ' Hit Clansdancer for a retal' and post an attack link for me to be attacked by someone in his faction.

Please note on this you are only assured you are doing it within the rules if you go straight through your warbase to hosp someone on your warbase. This is how the game is intended to be played, do so.


Wait, if I want to attack someone for the retaliation bonus, I will generally click on their name in the faction war logs, and attack them from their profile page. Is this now against the rules? It would make little sense to have to load the warbase just to attack someone.


What she means is how some retal bots worked by posting the actual attack link afterwards. So you would click the link in irc and immediately be in the attack in Torn.
Or they would post a profile link, click that and then you would be on the profile to either click attack, or see how beasty they are and wander away quietly. lol

Now both methods are illegal.


I'm 100% for these new rules. Once we entered the HoF we had to develop new bots just to be able to compete with the other big factions as most of them used all sorts of tracking and watching bots.
Hopefully soon they will all stop using them and it can be fair battles again, F5ing profiles like a madman waiting to strike

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DB_farid

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:09:05
The do not list what I have seen HOF factions do. Well I thought TuS also did this when we warred as they were so fast to retal in just 6 seconds which is almost impossible for a human. And when someone was morphing out too.

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Lampy

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:48:08
By DB_farid [1398886]
The do not list what I have seen HOF factions do. Well I thought TuS also did this when we warred as they were so fast to retal in just 6 seconds which is almost impossible for a human. And when someone was morphing out too.


Maybe we are not human

Or maybe we stalk: Spam refresh a factions user list and attack anyone not in hosp... no need for a retal bot because you hit them so quick they either dont have time to make an attack after they morph or you get the retal within seconds of them attacking your guy

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Ganon

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:06:18
By Lampy [897954]
By DB_farid [1398886]
The do not list what I have seen HOF factions do. Well I thought TuS also did this when we warred as they were so fast to retal in just 6 seconds which is almost impossible for a human. And when someone was morphing out too.


Maybe we are not human

Or maybe we stalk: Spam refresh a factions user list and attack anyone not in hosp... no need for a retal bot because you hit them so quick they either dont have time to make an attack after they morph or you get the retal within seconds of them attacking your guy


Shhhs!
Dont tell nimwits who dont know how to properly chain without a proper bot how to chain without such a bot!

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Para

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:12:47
By DB_farid [1398886]
The do not list what I have seen HOF factions do. Well I thought TuS also did this when we warred as they were so fast to retal in just 6 seconds which is almost impossible for a human. And when someone was morphing out too.


I know of a fair few factions outside the HoF that also use bots that have now been made illegal. Only time will tell if they have turned them off or changed how they work.
Hopefully they all abide by the new rules, if not hopefully they will all get caught and put in fed. Maybe even respect stripped from the faction for cheating.


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Htr

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:36:00
We in SA don't use chain bots at all

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kyle8048

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50:38
By Consciousness [1365950]
Look - the real issue isn't the IRC itself, and that's not what the original post was discussing. It's the rules: it only stops good people. Do you really think the people cheating were allowed to be cheating before the rules were implemented? No. Will it stop them? Absolutely not. If people followed rules, jails would be empty.


If people followed rules there would be a lot of oppressed countries with no freedoms.

It's disappointing that the few useful non op scripts will suffer because people were going too far abusing what was possible.

Last Edited: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:51:55
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Ganon

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 13:03:10
By Htr_ [89581]
We in SA don't use chain bots at all


F5ing is usually faster then waiting for a link in your chainroom to pop up.
F5 => proactive.
Waiting for retal link in IRC room =>reactive.

But haters gonna hate

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iiNsane

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 20:06:19
By Para [1455847]
By Danny [12503]
By -Clansdancer [65306]
1. Post attack links - For example I hosp Hydro and his bot post in his faction channel I hosped him - ' Hit Clansdancer for a retal' and post an attack link for me to be attacked by someone in his faction.

Please note on this you are only assured you are doing it within the rules if you go straight through your warbase to hosp someone on your warbase. This is how the game is intended to be played, do so.


Wait, if I want to attack someone for the retaliation bonus, I will generally click on their name in the faction war logs, and attack them from their profile page. Is this now against the rules? It would make little sense to have to load the warbase just to attack someone.


What she means is how some retal bots worked by posting the actual attack link afterwards. So you would click the link in irc and immediately be in the attack in Torn.
Or they would post a profile link, click that and then you would be on the profile to either click attack, or see how beasty they are and wander away quietly. lol

Now both methods are illegal.


I'm 100% for these new rules. Once we entered the HoF we had to develop new bots just to be able to compete with the other big factions as most of them used all sorts of tracking and watching bots.
Hopefully soon they will all stop using them and it can be fair battles again, F5ing profiles like a madman waiting to strike


Why do people complain about things not being fair once it's down to faction wars? Since when was anything I this game fair? Isn't it about competition and who has the better stats, equipment, resources, etc?
So if someone has a better chain bot, then that's all part of the competition... can you keep up with the technology(equipment)?

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Para

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Posted on Sat Aug 03, 2013 21:26:50
By iiNsane [1006280]
Why do people complain about things not being fair once it's down to faction wars? Since when was anything I this game fair? Isn't it about competition and who has the better stats, equipment, resources, etc?
So if someone has a better chain bot, then that's all part of the competition... can you keep up with the technology(equipment)?


If you're saying I am complaining you couldn't be more wrong.
I'm logged into irc about 17 hours a day. I use bots in there, our faction uses bots.
We built the bots to compete because we had to. We didn't have to keep up with the technology. We were there.
Now most of them can be turned off. I'm pleased about that as it was making wars silly. Anybody who didn't have the bots to do the things they did couldn't compete at that level.

Having scripts telling you everything with no effort is a crap game. Just having to sit and click when called upon.
As I said, I hope the people/factions still using them get caught.

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DB_farid

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 09:20:22
Well para I am with you on this.
And iinsane reading your comment makes me feel like you have 1 of these bots.

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Aurum

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 09:26:12
By DB_farid [1398886]
Well para I am with you on this.
And iinsane reading your comment makes me feel like you have 1 of these bots.


*had

of course they did, as did most of the active warring community (bar a couple of exceptions)... They weren't expensive to buy, nor hard to make, and they were easy to use. I hardly see it as unfair that a faction has one of these bots when all they do is log the green attacks in a faction's attack news. Of course they can be abused, but it's only a minority who do abuse, against the majority who use it as a tool.

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Passie

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:13:44
By Kiki [1544641]
By -Clansdancer [65306]
I will just talk around you


This is yet another perfect example of the disgusting, rude and useless "customer service" Torn offers to their users.

I have tried to start a proper discussion asking people who this topic relates to for their opinions on how these new changes may have effected the relationship between admins and players due to admins unnecessarily changing rules that will have no positive outcome on the game.

Instead of being able to have a proper discussion, I am accused of assuming things as well as not doing research on the topic at hand... Do you not think I wouldn't be posting if I didn't know about what effect the new rules have?!

As stated several times above, this will not stop the people who break the rules already. Please may I have some kind of response aimed at this particular sentence.


Or is it just another perfect example of taking things out of context?


By -Clansdancer [65306]
So with that out of the way (thanks bogie for getting him registered)

I am happy to answer any questions for the IRC user and bot makers. You can ask here or mail me and I will try to explain, just like it states in the rule thread in IRC general.

For those looking for arguments, I will just talk around you and hope the people with legit questions and comments do the same.


She clearly said she is happy to answer all questions.


By -Clansdancer [65306]
By Beerstein [1322136]
The only part that bothers me is not being allowed to track your own members anymore, that sort of stuff should be in the game IMO. That and the part where I have to log in. I mean come on! I don't even remember my password! I'm posting this from the forumwhore app.


I am not disagreeing they would make great additions to the game itself, it is something I think needs addressed and I am happy to hand over a list of things you feel (everyone players!) you are missing out on that should be added ingame (within reason) if you would like to create the document in great detail and hand over to me.

As for the bots - no tracking




"disgusting, rude and useless "customer service""?

Some people just like to see what they want to see.


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Aurum

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 15:42:47
By Passie [936578]
By Kiki [1544641]
By -Clansdancer [65306]
I will just talk around you


This is yet another perfect example of the disgusting, rude and useless "customer service" Torn offers to their users.

I have tried to start a proper discussion asking people who this topic relates to for their opinions on how these new changes may have effected the relationship between admins and players due to admins unnecessarily changing rules that will have no positive outcome on the game.

Instead of being able to have a proper discussion, I am accused of assuming things as well as not doing research on the topic at hand... Do you not think I wouldn't be posting if I didn't know about what effect the new rules have?!

As stated several times above, this will not stop the people who break the rules already. Please may I have some kind of response aimed at this particular sentence.


Or is it just another perfect example of taking things out of context?


By -Clansdancer [65306]
So with that out of the way (thanks bogie for getting him registered)

I am happy to answer any questions for the IRC user and bot makers. You can ask here or mail me and I will try to explain, just like it states in the rule thread in IRC general.

For those looking for arguments, I will just talk around you and hope the people with legit questions and comments do the same.


She clearly said she is happy to answer all questions.


By -Clansdancer [65306]
By Beerstein [1322136]
The only part that bothers me is not being allowed to track your own members anymore, that sort of stuff should be in the game IMO. That and the part where I have to log in. I mean come on! I don't even remember my password! I'm posting this from the forumwhore app.


I am not disagreeing they would make great additions to the game itself, it is something I think needs addressed and I am happy to hand over a list of things you feel (everyone players!) you are missing out on that should be added ingame (within reason) if you would like to create the document in great detail and hand over to me.

As for the bots - no tracking




"disgusting, rude and useless "customer service""?

Some people just like to see what they want to see.

I've worked in retail management for somewhere near 4 years now, and I've been on many courses to help improve our customer service and to keep it to an outstanding level.

So from this, I think I understanding as to what good and bad customer service is, and trust me Torn staff's customer service is horrific.

Want an example? I started an innocent discussion here and I'm glad that the admin who set the new rules is inputting on the conversation however to be accused of "assuming" and trying to cause an argument is ridiculous.

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CatHead

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 15:54:41
Chill out.

Much of this thread is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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Holmes407

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 17:28:10
By Para [1455847]
By iiNsane [1006280]
Why do people complain about things not being fair once it's down to faction wars? Since when was anything I this game fair? Isn't it about competition and who has the better stats, equipment, resources, etc?
So if someone has a better chain bot, then that's all part of the competition... can you keep up with the technology(equipment)?


If you're saying I am complaining you couldn't be more wrong.
I'm logged into irc about 17 hours a day. I use bots in there, our faction uses bots.
We built the bots to compete because we had to. We didn't have to keep up with the technology. We were there.
Now most of them can be turned off. I'm pleased about that as it was making wars silly. Anybody who didn't have the bots to do the things they did couldn't compete at that level.

Having scripts telling you everything with no effort is a crap game. Just having to sit and click when called upon.
As I said, I hope the people/factions still using them get caught.



Para, whats your thought on quick link for flying?


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Hiring100kIntel

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Posted on Sun Aug 04, 2013 18:30:36
So it's unfair to pay some one Torn money to do a BA chaining bot for you? Whiners need to work hard to pay for the bots or recruit coders for their faction. Who exactly was saying this was unfair? The only bots that are unfair are the people that have taken thousands of xanax more than the AVG player or should I say their bot has done it for them. It's not like there is a awesome track record for stopping botters in the first place. Way to kill the fun for the legit people. Cheaters will still be scripting it up as always

Hiring for my company 50k int=600k. Druggies are welcome if active.
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Aurum

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 17:18:46
What I wanna know now is where the line is drawn with GM and userscripts, cause they can essentially do the same thing in terms of data scraping....

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kyle8048

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 17:42:53
By Kiki [1544641]
What I wanna know now is where the line is drawn with GM and userscripts, cause they can essentially do the same thing in terms of data scraping....


Anything that is required to be logged into your account is not allowed pretty much. GM can edit the look of the page or can track the crimes you do. But it can not perform any actions or scrape data pretty much.

That's what I gathered anyway.


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Aurum

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 17:45:47
By kyle8048 [488020]
By Kiki [1544641]
What I wanna know now is where the line is drawn with GM and userscripts, cause they can essentially do the same thing in terms of data scraping....


Anything that is required to be logged into your account is not allowed pretty much. GM can edit the look of the page or can track the crimes you do. But it can not perform any actions or scrape data pretty much.

That's what I gathered anyway.


Well any page that is loaded, it can scrape data from just as it does for the crime tracker... So what would stop me from using a GM or a userscript that saves all the data from my faction attack news each time I load the page manually?

I notice that autorefreshers are now banned in the rule list (clicky here)

Last Edited: Mon Aug 05, 2013 17:48:24
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Hiring100kIntel

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 18:55:38
Show some consistency then Clansy, ban ALL scripting in IRC and site wide!

Hiring for my company 50k int=600k. Druggies are welcome if active.
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kyle8048

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 19:10:45
By Kiki [1544641]
By kyle8048 [488020]
By Kiki [1544641]
What I wanna know now is where the line is drawn with GM and userscripts, cause they can essentially do the same thing in terms of data scraping....


Anything that is required to be logged into your account is not allowed pretty much. GM can edit the look of the page or can track the crimes you do. But it can not perform any actions or scrape data pretty much.

That's what I gathered anyway.


Well any page that is loaded, it can scrape data from just as it does for the crime tracker... So what would stop me from using a GM or a userscript that saves all the data from my faction attack news each time I load the page manually?

I notice that autorefreshers are now banned in the rule list (clicky here)


That would probably be within the rules but would be freaking annoying. Same as using a paste bin for the data

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Aurum

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 20:05:45
By Hiring50kIntel [266775]
Show some consistency then Clansy, ban ALL scripting in IRC and site wide!


Which is why these rule changes should be reversed, and more should be done to stop the abuse of these scripts such as logs of how many times someone has accessed a specific page... People with bots and scripts could then be monitored to ensure they're staying within the rules.

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kyle8048

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 21:32:21
By Kiki [1544641]
By Hiring50kIntel [266775]
Show some consistency then Clansy, ban ALL scripting in IRC and site wide!


Which is why these rule changes should be reversed, and more should be done to stop the abuse of these scripts such as logs of how many times someone has accessed a specific page... People with bots and scripts could then be monitored to ensure they're staying within the rules.


It's not just so easy as that. A whole site captcha instead of just gym/crimes/flying would solve some issues. Fixing the attack logs would solve others and making personal stats personal would solve a good few of the rest.

The rest of the auto-buyers and refreshers and some funky tracking would be more difficult to trace/stop.

Last Edited: Mon Aug 05, 2013 21:35:38
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Aurum

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Posted on Mon Aug 05, 2013 21:47:39
By kyle8048 [488020]
By Kiki [1544641]
By Hiring50kIntel [266775]
Show some consistency then Clansy, ban ALL scripting in IRC and site wide!


Which is why these rule changes should be reversed, and more should be done to stop the abuse of these scripts such as logs of how many times someone has accessed a specific page... People with bots and scripts could then be monitored to ensure they're staying within the rules.


It's not just so easy as that. A whole site captcha instead of just gym/crimes/flying would solve some issues. Fixing the attack logs would solve others and making personal stats personal would solve a good few of the rest.

The rest of the auto-buyers and refreshers and some funky tracking would be more difficult to trace/stop.


even captcha on bazaars and markets...

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Hiring100kIntel

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Posted on Sat Aug 10, 2013 05:15:39
By kyle8048 [488020]
By Kiki [1544641]
By Hiring50kIntel [266775]
Show some consistency then Clansy, ban ALL scripting in IRC and site wide!


Which is why these rule changes should be reversed, and more should be done to stop the abuse of these scripts such as logs of how many times someone has accessed a specific page... People with bots and scripts could then be monitored to ensure they're staying within the rules.


It's not just so easy as that. A whole site captcha instead of just gym/crimes/flying would solve some issues. Fixing the attack logs would solve others and making personal stats personal would solve a good few of the rest.

The rest of the auto-buyers and refreshers and some funky tracking would be more difficult to trace/stop.


ALL scripting. Greasemonkey, cheaters...all of it! If you can't have proper irc bots for warring why should you have them to change the site in anyway. Play the game as it was intended, right Clansy? Glad all the questions were answered, yeah right!

Rules are rules but this all stinks of whiners that don't have a coder in the faction or are broke asses. Pick up a book and learn how, recruit a coder to your faction or work a little harder in the game to fund a good bot.

Hiring for my company 50k int=600k. Druggies are welcome if active.
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