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Aurum

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Thread created on Wed Jul 31, 2013 03:29:35
Last replied to on Mon Aug 12, 2013 23:06:01
New rules have just been set out in the IRC General forum by Clansy

(click here of you want to see Clansy's post)

With these new changes, is this another update that is set to damage the relationship between the players and the staff?

It is worth noting that except for a couple of players, the scripts that are in question are bots that operate in IRC, posting information to channels; such as a chain bot that automatically posts the faction attack news to their channel...

There is now a total ban on linking bots to your account to lift information from Torn.

Another thought, a huge quantity of these scripts similar to the example above are used by many HOF factions, as well as a lot of smaller factions; to those of us who were abiding by our moral compasses and were using scripts as a tool rather than a way of giving themselves an unfair advantage are now told to stop doing so immediately with the threat of Fed for scripting...

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IAMNEWB

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 04:33:15
people still use irc?

edit:i see nothing wrong with those rules

Last Edited: Wed Jul 31, 2013 04:39:11
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Beerstein

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 05:23:44
WTF I have to actually log in to torn now?!

Last Edited: Wed Jul 31, 2013 05:24:00
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Mauk

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 07:50:32
I don't get it.

Direct connection to Torn is now banned. Although unfortunate, that's a reasonable rule.
With it, bots are basically a notepad, timer and calculator that depend on user input for -any- tracking. Which is ok!

But the list of things allowed is confusing.

For example, "2. A bot may track respect from their faction and any other."
Why even list this? Damn right they can! If I have to enter the data manually, why the hell couldn't they? It's not so much tracking as it's a shared spreadsheet.

"3. A bot may show who within your own faction has been hosped, such as Clansy was hospitalized - someone hospitalized clansy - with no retal attack links posted after it. So as long as it's just showing I was hosped which is information that can easily be pulled from global events"
Again.. I have to notify the bot about the hospitalization. It would make no sense to ban it.

But then.. No attack links? Why?
It's already requires manual player intervention.
Someone got hospitalized? I have to copy the id and tell the bot to notify everybody..
But copying the attack link is just as easy as copying the id to feed the bot.
I could simply notify everybody with a message: copy link and warn people over chat. Done. No bot needed. Is that banned as well?

"5. A bot cannot track players landing times, jail times, hospital times. Example - Someone is morphing out of the hospital that is on your warbase - your bot alerts you their hospital time is counting down. No - if you want to know if they morphing - refresh their profile (manually for the love of god)."
It's already established that bots cannot track things automatically! They can't gather data from Torn, so how can they alert us of hospitalizations?
But what about the last part of this rule? If I tell the bot someone's been hospitalized (manually.. it can't track shit) for x hours, it can set a timer. That's allowed.



As far as I could understand, the only real rules are "no data scraping" and "no attack links."
All the others are examples of the application of these two rules.
I question the validity of the second one, though... I don't need to manually ask bots to notify people about who attacked me if I can just as easily copy/paste the attack link.
In fact, even if I just post the player id, any human can manually type the attack link..

Help me understand?

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iiNsane

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 09:01:04
Personally I don't like these new rules. People who script for unfair advantage will still continue to.. probably.
Others who used scripts for data purposes now can't collect and display interesting data. That's just one example. Such as Cyberdude's graph's and nerba's hall of fame data. Technology advances, and so do people's methods of doing things. Stop sticking to the 1990's way of getting things done god dammit!
There's so many ways scripts make your life easier... As long as its not doing the actions for you, I don't see how displaying information for you hurts anyone else.

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Crayfish

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 09:22:37
Get over it FFS.

We used to chain on MSN messenger many years ago

My internet girlfriend loves to sit on MyFace and Twitter all night.


I am a sexual insomniac. I can only sleep in snatches.
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Driving

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 09:57:08
I use snapchat to chain

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NewehAccount

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:01:46
No offence to anyone intended.

But:

These rules are actually incredibly retarded. You are no longer allowed to track other peoples attack timers? How are they even going to enforce that?


All this will do is provide those who dont give a shit about the rules more of a advantage. Majority of this can be done behind closed doors without staff ever knowing, ie on another network and without logging in.


If they are serious about disallowing this then build alternates into the game without having to refresh the page every 10 seconds. Its not fun to have to refresh. There is no reason to make you do it.

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KingYoda
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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:29:11
HAHAHAHAHA, Shame on you.

Some awesome rules.

Rated -

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Styx

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:29:27
Ban one ban them all, there should be no grey area........ Just my thoughts. There is no good reason to allow them to begin with.

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introvert

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:51:28
there was a suggestion made recently on throttling certain pages much
like refreshing the points page has.
http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=4&ID=15549395
which taken into consideration with such policy would help mitigate the
impact of ignoring such, though the sticky itself is new, i do recall
much of what is written, suppose it is mostly by just sitting in #help

hopefully in time updates to torn itself will downplay the advantages of
such matters seen as exploitation, policy is only as good as the people
who follow such or the mechanics built around such policy to ensure it.

Last Edited: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:15:53
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Aurum

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:27:43
By Beerstein [1322136]
WTF I have to actually log in to torn now?!


That's really not the point...

Warring factions who only want to have to keep active members need a way of seeing who is participating in chains actively, and going through hundreds of pages of attack logs is extremely tedious! What's wrong with a script that counts hits your faction members have made to make sure everyone is playing their part?

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Red

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:49:03
By Styx [420347]
Ban one ban them all, there should be no grey area........ Just my thoughts. There is no good reason to allow them to begin with.


this

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bl0ndie

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:08:43
By Kiki [1544641]
By Beerstein [1322136]
WTF I have to actually log in to torn now?!


That's really not the point...

Warring factions who only want to have to keep active members need a way of seeing who is participating in chains actively, and going through hundreds of pages of attack logs is extremely tedious! What's wrong with a script that counts hits your faction members have made to make sure everyone is playing their part?



Total BS
as a member of an active chaining faction, we have many players who dont use irc, but are still very active chainers.
what your saying is, only irc chainers count in numbers?

we dont need a chain bot to tell us whos helping.


Last Edited: Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:11:36
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Xemeh

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:11:52
By Driving [1497275]
I use snapchat to chain


Snapchat is the future

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Karna
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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:13:16
By bl0ndie [179706]
By Kiki [1544641]
By Beerstein [1322136]
WTF I have to actually log in to torn now?!


That's really not the point...

Warring factions who only want to have to keep active members need a way of seeing who is participating in chains actively, and going through hundreds of pages of attack logs is extremely tedious! What's wrong with a script that counts hits your faction members have made to make sure everyone is playing their part?



Total BS
as a member of an active chaining faction, we have many players who dont use irc, but are still very active chainers.
what your saying is, only irc chainers count in numbers?

we dont need a chain bot to tell us whos helping.


No i believe she means going through the factions attack logs copy and pasting hundreds of pages to see who has made 'x' amount of hits and who hasn't.


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Xemeh

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:14:53
By bl0ndie [179706]
By Kiki [1544641]
By Beerstein [1322136]
WTF I have to actually log in to torn now?!


That's really not the point...

Warring factions who only want to have to keep active members need a way of seeing who is participating in chains actively, and going through hundreds of pages of attack logs is extremely tedious! What's wrong with a script that counts hits your faction members have made to make sure everyone is playing their part?



Total BS
as a member of an active chaining faction, we have many players who dont use irc, but are still very active chainers.
what your saying is, only irc chainers count in numbers?

we dont need a chain bot to tell us whos helping.


Well, people who do have everyone on IRC do. It's all down to choice and chain management


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Aurum

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:24:32
By Karna [499828]
By bl0ndie [179706]
By Kiki [1544641]
By Beerstein [1322136]
WTF I have to actually log in to torn now?!


That's really not the point...

Warring factions who only want to have to keep active members need a way of seeing who is participating in chains actively, and going through hundreds of pages of attack logs is extremely tedious! What's wrong with a script that counts hits your faction members have made to make sure everyone is playing their part?



Total BS
as a member of an active chaining faction, we have many players who dont use irc, but are still very active chainers.
what your saying is, only irc chainers count in numbers?

we dont need a chain bot to tell us whos helping.


No i believe she means going through the factions attack logs copy and pasting hundreds of pages to see who has made 'x' amount of hits and who hasn't.


Exactly this so everyone in the faction (both those who do and don't use IRC) are included in the "counter" which reveals how many hits they have made.

@Izzy !count Chedburn
@PEWPEW Chedburn has made 2 hits in total!

I use that example as Chedburn has never joined our IRC channel and never actively chained with us while he was in our faction but his hit counter was increased because of data collecting from the attack news

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Ramosdef

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:30:08
I think people who use scripts that are giving them an unfair advantage will continue to do so anyway. They probably know how to make it look like they aren't using scripts so this resolves very little if the people who are using scripts that do give them an unfair advantage take no notice.

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-Clansdancer

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:35:10
By Kiki [1544641]
New rules have just been set out in the IRC General forum by Clansy

(click here of you want to see Clansy's post)

With these new changes, is this another update that is set to damage the relationship between the players and the staff?

It is worth noting that except for a couple of players, the scripts that are in question are bots that operate in IRC, posting information to channels; such as a chain bot that automatically posts the faction attack news to their channel...

There is now a total ban on linking bots to your account to lift information from Torn.

Another thought, a huge quantity of these scripts similar to the example above are used by many HOF factions, as well as a lot of smaller factions; to those of us who were abiding by our moral compasses and were using scripts as a tool rather than a way of giving themselves an unfair advantage are now told to stop doing so immediately with the threat of Fed for scripting...


Well unfortunately you speak without facts. I was ASKED by the players to do this because there was much confusion on what was acceptable and what was not. My hand forced to get this detailed due to those wanting to push the limits always as to what is considered an 'advantage' over other players.

There is about 300 players that visit IRC - I have other players to worry about beside you IRC lot and try to make things fair for all.

So before you make accusations and assumptions you should have gotten your facts straight.

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Hades

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:37:54
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.

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IAMNEWB

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 13:56:16
By Hades [1728299]
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.


this is a good idea

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PimpChu

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:06:26
By IAMNEWB [1613227]
By Hades [1728299]
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.


this is a good idea


i disagree. it would ruin the fun of irc.

Using your Samurai Sword you hit alchemy in the left shoulder for 64030 damage

You Lost to alchemy
Totally worth it.
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Aurum

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:13:29
By -Deadpool [1284243]
By IAMNEWB [1613227]
By Hades [1728299]
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.


this is a good idea


i disagree. it would ruin the fun of irc.


You already can't impersonate others, so there's no need for it?

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Hades

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:16:39
By Kiki [1544641]
By -Deadpool [1284243]
By IAMNEWB [1613227]
By Hades [1728299]
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.


this is a good idea


i disagree. it would ruin the fun of irc.


You already can't impersonate others, so there's no need for it?


It would ruin the fun for scammers.

Also people can use other peoples names. Its just against the rules. Not coded so we are unable to.

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bogie

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:20:30
By Hades [1728299]
By Kiki [1544641]
By -Deadpool [1284243]
By IAMNEWB [1613227]
By Hades [1728299]
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.


this is a good idea


i disagree. it would ruin the fun of irc.


You already can't impersonate others, so there's no need for it?


It would ruin the fun for scammers.

Also people can use other peoples names. Its just against the rules. Not coded so we are unable to.


/nick name

/ns register password email

/ns set kill quick

It is coded in...

Last Edited: Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:21:00
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Mauk

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:22:54
By -Clansdancer [65306]
By Kiki [1544641]
New rules have just been set out in the IRC General forum by Clansy

(click here of you want to see Clansy's post)

With these new changes, is this another update that is set to damage the relationship between the players and the staff?

It is worth noting that except for a couple of players, the scripts that are in question are bots that operate in IRC, posting information to channels; such as a chain bot that automatically posts the faction attack news to their channel...

There is now a total ban on linking bots to your account to lift information from Torn.

Another thought, a huge quantity of these scripts similar to the example above are used by many HOF factions, as well as a lot of smaller factions; to those of us who were abiding by our moral compasses and were using scripts as a tool rather than a way of giving themselves an unfair advantage are now told to stop doing so immediately with the threat of Fed for scripting...


Well unfortunately you speak without facts. I was ASKED by the players to do this because there was much confusion on what was acceptable and what was not. My hand forced to get this detailed due to those wanting to push the limits always as to what is considered an 'advantage' over other players.

There is about 300 players that visit IRC - I have other players to worry about beside you IRC lot and try to make things fair for all.

So before you make accusations and assumptions you should have gotten your facts straight.


If I may ask.. What accusations and assumptions?
That was basically a question to kick off a discussion.. Kiki's post looks pretty neutral to me.
Also, not once she said it shouldn't be done or people didn't want it. So what facts are you talking about?

I don't mean to set you off, by the way. You just seemed offende by her post, specifically, instead of the few shallow and harsh posts.

Personally, I commend you for the effort on the rules, but in my opinion they are confusing and slightly ambiguous, as opposed to detailed.
As I said in my previous post, it -looks like- there are only two rules. I'm still waiting for someone to comment on that, though.

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-Clansdancer

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:25:16
By Hades [1728299]
There should be a new update that you can only use your name on torn as your name on IRC.
I was impersonated as many others also have had the same happen.


Though I understand that was frustrating for you - people quite enjoy changing names - sometimes channels do a 'themed name' type thing and many other reasons why I can't really force users to use 1 name, nor would I want too.



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-Clansdancer

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:28:34
By Mauk [1494436]
By -Clansdancer [65306]
By Kiki [1544641]
New rules have just been set out in the IRC General forum by Clansy

(click here of you want to see Clansy's post)

With these new changes, is this another update that is set to damage the relationship between the players and the staff?

It is worth noting that except for a couple of players, the scripts that are in question are bots that operate in IRC, posting information to channels; such as a chain bot that automatically posts the faction attack news to their channel...

There is now a total ban on linking bots to your account to lift information from Torn.

Another thought, a huge quantity of these scripts similar to the example above are used by many HOF factions, as well as a lot of smaller factions; to those of us who were abiding by our moral compasses and were using scripts as a tool rather than a way of giving themselves an unfair advantage are now told to stop doing so immediately with the threat of Fed for scripting...


Well unfortunately you speak without facts. I was ASKED by the players to do this because there was much confusion on what was acceptable and what was not. My hand forced to get this detailed due to those wanting to push the limits always as to what is considered an 'advantage' over other players.

There is about 300 players that visit IRC - I have other players to worry about beside you IRC lot and try to make things fair for all.

So before you make accusations and assumptions you should have gotten your facts straight.


If I may ask.. What accusations and assumptions?
That was basically a question to kick off a discussion.. Kiki's post looks pretty neutral to me.
Also, not once she said it shouldn't be done or people didn't want it. So what facts are you talking about?

I don't mean to set you off, by the way. You just seemed offende by her post, specifically, instead of the few shallow and harsh posts.

Personally, I commend you for the effort on the rules, but in my opinion they are confusing and slightly ambiguous, as opposed to detailed.
As I said in my previous post, it -looks like- there are only two rules. I'm still waiting for someone to comment on that, though.




They are quite detailed and not confusing at all if you are a script writer for IRC bots.

I believe he states I am trying to damage the relationship between players and staff? Hardly, as I stated there are about 300 people that use IRC so you are a minority in my day really. I am trying to even the playing field for all.

I did try to keep this simple in the beginning but people pushed those limits and boundaries so trust me when I say this was not something I was really interested in doing but if I'm frank - you all have yourselves to thank for the rules (irc scripters and bot users) for not just keeping things simple and fun.

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Penicillin

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:29:09
Kudos on the new rules Clansy. Long overdue. I guess some of you will have to play the game the way it was intended to be played. Who knows, this might even alleviate some lag without you scripting dirtbags pinging the servers 100,000 times a day.

A small vocal minority might be complaining but the VAST majority of TC players are cheering.

Last Edited: Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:32:22
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Aurum

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 14:29:24
By -Clansdancer [65306]
So before you make accusations and assumptions you should have gotten your facts straight.


accusations and assumptions?

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