Thread created on Fri Nov 30, 2012 00:27:37 Last replied to on Mon Dec 17, 2012 22:26:46
Please don't name any in here to avoid it being graved.
There was a thread that was graved from GD which advertised something some posters saw as a bazaar lotto scam. It was posted by a third party but I was contacted by the original player after I bountied them.
They protested their innocence as they had won the items in irc and weren't sure what to do with them so held a lotto.
As the thread wasn't moved to trade, I'm assuming the offence was that people were arranging to bounty the third party and the original player and it was thus graved.
So, the discussion is this really. Scamming is legal and the punishment for any infringements are now down to the community. After all, we were told the medical item cool down was brought in to make sure we had the tools to do this. So should we be able to discuss scammers/spammers/trolls/ducks freely and organise community punishment if appropriate? If not, why not?
Yeah despite the fact that scamming is legal I don't see the harm in us naming them in forums. We don't do it for staff to act on it but rather the vigilantes who actually want to see fair game
Rated +....much better topic to discuss as opposed to a 'bazaar lotto'
By LeukyBear [83808] Try it in Fun & Games, that would be about the appropriateness of it as not everyone agrees with your points of view on it.
I'm not attempting to get everyone to agree. Surely they could voice their disagreement in such a thread on whichever forum it was posted? This issue wasn't moved to a forum deemed more appropriate for discussion, it was closed by moving it to the graveyard.
I dont think there is anything wrong with a little name and shame. Publicly coming up with punishment isn't against the rules either as long as there are no rules broken in the thread (flaming, abundance of obscenities, etc) I guess it being graved would be up to the staff member who reads it and what they feel is best. As long as no rules are broken i wouldnt grave a thread on this topic. If there was payment for people hosping someone etc, i would make the thread in fun and games as Leuky mentioned.
Introduce a game of hosping scammers for cash basically then I guess you guys are suggesting. That would keep people into it. Would be bounties that aren't exactly 'bounties'
The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't. It becomes very suggestive and then you have a he/she said he/she said competition and lots of trolling. That would ultimately be why they get graved.
By LeukyBear [83808] The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't. It becomes very suggestive and then you have a he/she said he/she said competition and lots of trolling. That would ultimately be why they get graved.
By LeukyBear [83808] The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't.
Well maybe Ched shouldn't have decided it was up to the players to police it then.
By LeukyBear [83808] The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't. It becomes very suggestive and then you have a he/she said he/she said competition and lots of trolling. That would ultimately be why they get graved.
I agree - in principle.
The definition of a scam is very vague.
In my opinion a scammer is someone who does not bear up to their end of a trade, not someone who manages to trade a item at lower than average cost due to the ignorance of the affected party.
Players, ignorant or not, should be aware that scammers exist in game and ignore their feeble attempts at stealing your money or items.
Eventually scammers in this respect will have no hunting ground and will therefore cease to exist.
By LeukyBear [83808] Technically, he didn't. He just decided that scamming was legal. Everything after that is up to whoever is looking at the situation.
Technically, he said "The deterrents should be player-made." in his announcement removing faction scamming. I haven't looked further back, but it's clear that players should get to decide what the infringement process is. Even if that is divisive.
By LeukyBear [83808] The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't. It becomes very suggestive and then you have a he/she said he/she said competition and lots of trolling. That would ultimately be why they get graved.
Scammers may publicly advertise scams, so it's just fair that other players can publicly advertise warnings about individual scammers. Scamming is legal, but I don't see why it should have special protection.
However it would be problematic if such threads were put in GD. We'd being seeing 20 or 30 new threads a day of people complaining about every little thing another player did to them.
By LeukyBear [83808] the process is already there, however people don't believe it is enough. Again subjective to the person viewing the situation.
You believing there is a process, seeing and realising the process, is not player-made. If it's player-made it should evolve with the players. Currently the actualities of punishment being deserved and/or the sentence is not open for discussion. This is understandable when discussing game rules, but not player determined deterrents.
How can we determine them if we're not allowed to discuss them on a case by case basis?
By LeukyBear [83808] The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't. It becomes very suggestive and then you have a he/she said he/she said competition and lots of trolling. That would ultimately be why they get graved.
^^ Exactly this.
You scammed my reply. I worked hard to come up with this. You add an extra arrow and an exactly and you look all fancy? pfft Women -_-
By Ekko [1621978]
Scammers may publicly advertise scams, so it's just fair that other players can publicly advertise warnings about individual scammers. Scamming is legal, but I don't see why it should have special protection.
However it would be problematic if such threads were put in GD. We'd being seeing 20 or 30 new threads a day of people complaining about every little thing another player did to them.
Plenty of posts with similar content are limited to stickies. Create a sticky, moderate that it is always posted there. Grave if it isn't.
By LeukyBear [83808] The main problem is it is sometimes difficult to fathom what is scamming and what isn't, what some consider scamming others don't. It becomes very suggestive and then you have a he/she said he/she said competition and lots of trolling. That would ultimately be why they get graved.
^^ Exactly this.
You scammed my reply. I worked hard to come up with this. You add an extra arrow and an exactly and you look all fancy? pfft Women -_-
I also moved the arrows to the front, fancy no? Pfft, men -_-
On topic. All threads on volatile subjects like scamming end up the same way. They devolve into flame fests/trolling. That's why ultimately you won't ever be able to have a decent discussion about subjects like these. The community simply won't allow it to happen.
I still remember the topic by a certain person saying someone is constantly attacking him and then throwing a name.
Now how many bounties that name got before one of you guys checked the stats page and saw clearly the accusation couldnt possibly be correct?
Not to mention the scammer lists, notorious for holding names which didnt even stood next to a scammer just because the author didnt like them?
But im sure a scammer name and shame thread where everyone could post whatever they like without it going past any kind of approval would be perfectly valid and objective and all people beeing bountied would deserve it.
Well that or everyone would be called a scammer at some point or other making it not only legal but a default setting for all.
Only way to fall for a scam is ignorance anymore. We have all been scammed in the past and we have learned from it. There is no point in having a list or doing anything else about it. Just add the person to your enemies list and never deal Witt them again
Theres no in game mechanic for scamming, and no limiting factor (IE nerve, energy, casino tokens, travel time, hospital, jail) unlike the rest of the ways to make money.
All the rest of the crimes have "red results".
I dont see why:
"You attempted to scam XXX, you failed, they refused to drop it and let you move on and you've now been exposed publicy as a scammer on the forums. Good luck trying to scam from the public blacklist"
Shouldnt be an acceptable imaginary red result.
Name and Shame FTW.
No but seriously.. Say No to legalised scamming, Its just logical.
By Nabisco [482424]
Only way to fall for a scam is ignorance anymore. We have all been scammed in the past and we have learned from it. There is no point in having a list or doing anything else about it. Just add the person to your enemies list and never deal Witt them again
Respectfully disagree. Scammers have two kinds of victims. The first is greedy people, and since greedy people are also usually misers, after they've fallen for the same scam enough times, they develop a immunity to it. The scope of the game only allows for so many different types of scams, so eventually they become almost scam proof.
The other thing scammers prey on is kind people. Spin a heart-wrenching sob story, pledge their honour that they'll follow a pre-agreed-on payback plan, etc....... And these kind of targets will always be around, because the day people quit having a heart the human race will die. YMMV
By HarshLife [443611]
Theres no in game mechanic for scamming, and no limiting factor (IE nerve, energy, casino tokens, travel time, hospital, jail) unlike the rest of the ways to make money.
All the rest of the crimes have "red results".
I dont see why:
"You attempted to scam XXX, you failed, they refused to drop it and let you move on and you've now been exposed publicy as a scammer on the forums. Good luck trying to scam from the public blacklist"
Shouldnt be an acceptable imaginary red result.
Name and Shame FTW.
Good point, well made. Scamming seems like the best option to make money.
It would be a nightmare thread though, everybody calling everybody a scammer for whatever reason they can think of, the scammers would have just as much of a voice as the scammees. And as has been said before- the definition of a scam is murky. Getting a f**king great deal off some noob would be considered a scam by some and good business sense by others. Also, those who fall for scams are a little bit silly quite often (maybe my tone will change when I send my most valuable possession to someone but I'm not planning to do that) if they're not a noob there's no excuse to fall for it.
Scamming's legal- it's a shame and the only thing we can do is be careful, there is no retribution.
1 shares in ISTC have been sold for $364. You can withdraw your check from the bank, or wait for it to be credited to your account in 24 hours.
Unfortunately, as scamming is legalized (the only things they do is to place a warn sign), this creates the situation where the citizens are required to defend themselves.
By Nabisco [482424]
Only way to fall for a scam is ignorance anymore. We have all been scammed in the past and we have learned from it. There is no point in having a list or doing anything else about it. Just add the person to your enemies list and never deal Witt them again
Respectfully disagree. Scammers have two kinds of victims. The first is greedy people, and since greedy people are also usually misers, after they've fallen for the same scam enough times, they develop a immunity to it. The scope of the game only allows for so many different types of scams, so eventually they become almost scam proof.
The other thing scammers prey on is kind people. Spin a heart-wrenching sob story, pledge their honour that they'll follow a pre-agreed-on payback plan, etc....... And these kind of targets will always be around, because the day people quit having a heart the human race will die. YMMV
I am in total agreement with this. I been Scammed 3B and yea because its a crime game and its legal doesnt mean its morally right. I hear people say its people being ignorant and its their fault being scammed, fact of the matter of his anyone can get scammed. I got scammed by someone no one really suspected of being a scammer and plus he made his own money but he still got tempted and couldnt resist. I hate it when people use the excuse well its game so I can scam... wake up it also means your a scum in RL. This game in my opinion protects scammers too much but madamebutterfly explain certain things to me which partly make sense.
I have my 11 year old son playing this game and I bought him up not to Lie and cheat, cos he knows if he does there are consequences to his actions. Its a bit disappointing that this game is teaching Kids the wrong thing. There will always be scammers and its fairly right cos people play the game differently, but I think there needs to a consequences for their actions. Everything in Life is all about learning and we all know the difference between right and wrong.
Rated ++ for a worthwhile discussion thread though.
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