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Forum Main>>Bugs & Issues>> Bail Reduction percentage is wrong
cyberdude

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Thread created on Wed Sep 25, 2013 14:22:43
Last replied to on Tue Mar 11, 2014 17:03:06
I can now with confidence say there are bugs/wrong calculations with Reduction in Bail Cost Perks

Perk saying 15% reduction does in fact only consistently offer 14.5% reduction.

bailprice.png

Is this something that can be looked at, it seems there is some calculation going wrong. This might even have propagated to other calculations?

Edit:
Updated Screenshot with a bit more information.

Last Edited: Wed Sep 25, 2013 20:40:08
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cyberdude

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Posted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 15:51:38
So I kind of think I know what's going on now.

The 15% reduction consists of two Perks -10% Bails Cost and -5% Bail cost. When added together this makes -15% Bail cost.
HOWEVER, these percentage Stack up, meaning that from the original cost we take of 10% and from that result take of another 5% or vice versa.
The calculation for this is
100 * ((100-10)*100) * ((100-5)*100) => 100% * 90% * 95% => 85.5%, which is a 14.5% reduction.
The calculation here is correct, however the problem is that the Perks text doesn't reflect this. The Perks texts incorrectly sums up the reduction by simple addition (10+5) => 15%

This is VERY much wrong, and certainly propagates absolutely wrong results/numbers in the Perks list.

Basically Perks list is "lying" by showing wrong numbers.
The problem is probably persisting through most other perks with these sort of additions.

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RatedR

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Posted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 16:23:56
for ched.



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cyberdude

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Posted on Wed Sep 25, 2013 20:37:17
Confirmed that this problem is correct, and it's even more noticable when having Law bachelor.
The perk states "- 65% Bail Cost" while really it's only -57.25% Bail Cost.
Updated image in OP to show further results.

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Chedburn

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Posted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:56:44
I looked in to this, this is always the way it was intended to work.

I.e. 10% reduction, and then 5% reduction.

The problem currently is that, with all bonuses, in the way you mentioned, the user would be able to achieve -15%. I.e. Making money per bail. The law company offers a reduction of 50%.

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cyberdude

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Posted on Thu Sep 26, 2013 14:07:00
By Chedburn [1]
I looked in to this, this is always the way it was intended to work.

I.e. 10% reduction, and then 5% reduction.

The problem currently is that, with all bonuses, in the way you mentioned, the user would be able to achieve -15%. I.e. Making money per bail. The law company offers a reduction of 50%.

I'm perfectly aware that the reduction is as it's supposed to be.
But the Perks Texts are wrong. A 10% reduction and after that a 5% reduction gives a total of 14.5% reduction, not 15%. This is the issue. The perks text incorrectly states "-15% Bail cost" in this case.
In the case of having Law Bachelor the Perk text states "-65% Bail cost" which is again even more incorrect, as the real result is really -57.25% and NOT -65%, due to this Reduction upon reduction (Stacking).
Stacked reduction is not the same as added reduction.

The Perk text desribes the reduction as an Added Reduction, but the reality is that it's a Stacked Reduction.


Result = Value * 0.90 * 0.95 => 0.855 (14.5% reduction)
Is NOT the same as:
Result = Value * 0.85 (Which is what the perks text describes as 15%)

Again also
Result = Value * 0.5 * 0.90 * 0.95 => 0.4275 (57.25% reduction)
Is NOT the same as:
Result = Value * 0.35 (Which is what the perks text describes as 65%)


So in short:
Perks Text shows wrong "Result"

Last Edited: Thu Sep 26, 2013 14:21:36
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Chedburn

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Posted on Tue Oct 01, 2013 22:22:01
Perks text shows the correct values, I don't understand what else we would display. The way that the system is made, we can't dynamically change the percentage bonus listed on the perks list, it'd also look weird even if we were able to do it. So I'm not 100% sure what you're asking us to do here?

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cyberdude

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Posted on Tue Oct 01, 2013 22:40:01
By Chedburn [1]
Perks text shows the correct values, I don't understand what else we would display. The way that the system is made, we can't dynamically change the percentage bonus listed on the perks list, it'd also look weird even if we were able to do it. So I'm not 100% sure what you're asking us to do here?


The perks DOES NOT show the correct values.
The perks text says: "15%" while the correct value is 14.5%
The perks text says: "65%" while the correct value is 57.25%

Text is calculated with: 10% + 5% = 15% reduction (85% of original)
Text is calculated with: 50% + 10% + 5% = 65% (35% of original)

Which is not the same formula/calculation performed on the results:

Result is calculated with: 100% - 10% reduction - 5% reduction = 14.5% reduction (85.5% of original)
Result is calculated with: 100% - 50% reduction - 10% reduction - 5% reduction = 57.25% reduction (42.75% of original)



In short:
Text does NOT show correct value, these are two very different ways of using math. The perks texts are wrong, not correct.



I'm not really sure how to put it differently. Do the math and you'll clearly see how wrong the perks texts are.
The perks texts are generated by ADDING up the 5% reduction, but this is NOT what really is happening to the result.

Essentially I'm asking you to show the CORRECT values (By applying the same math to the perks texts as is applied to the real result), and not the wrongly calculated perks text values. Currently you are using two different formulas/calculations.

Last Edited: Tue Oct 01, 2013 22:44:22
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cyberdude

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Posted on Tue Oct 01, 2013 23:03:29
Lets try with a currency example:

- Lets say you have £100.
- You give me 50%
- You are left with £50
- Of those remaining currency, you give 50% of those to someone else
- You are now left with £25
- You have now given away (Reduced) your original value by 75%
- Which is NOT the same as 50 + 50.


Another example:
- Lets again say you have £100.
- You give me 50%
- You are now left with £50 (50% reduction)
- Of those remaining you now give a second person 10% of those 50£.
- 10% of £50 = £5
- You are now left with £45
- Of those remaining £45 you give an additional 5% to charity
- 5% of £45 = £2.25 given to charity
- You are now left with £45 - £2.25 = £42.75
- You have given away (Reduced) your original value by 57.25%
- Which is NOT the same as 50+15+5 (65%)

Basically when applying several percentage reductions to a value by applying it to the former result,
is not the same as just simply adding up the percentages.

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cyberdude

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Posted on Wed Oct 09, 2013 00:09:37
Finally decided to look up the English word (I'm not native English speaker) for what I call "stacked":

"compound interest"

I think

Last Edited: Wed Oct 09, 2013 00:11:47
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Chedburn

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Posted on Wed Oct 09, 2013 03:44:51
In my opinion, it is perfectly fine - It just depends on the way you look at it. If there's 15%, and then 65% on the list... It deducts 15%, and then deducts 65%, which makes total sense?

Also the fact still stands, if you have one perk of 15%, it is still 15%. We can't have the values constantly changing based on how many of the perk there are.

Also, with the current values, it's possible to get minus percent under your system.

It sounds like you're asking for a total rewrite of the education & company special bonuses, just for the simple reason that you perceive the values a slightly different way.

I'm not sure how to proceed, this would be days and days of work. What do other people think?

Last Edited: Wed Oct 09, 2013 03:45:14
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cyberdude

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Posted on Wed Oct 09, 2013 09:31:18
God damn! How hard can it be to understand????

I DON'T WANT a total rewrite of the bonuses, they are perfectly fine!
I WANT the PERKS TEXT to be changed, because they are wrong!

There is NOT a SINGLE PERK that adds 15% deduction, there is TWO PERKS each adding 10% and 5% deduction!

You are doing the exact thing I'm asking for the Life Merit Points. http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=3&ID=15744947

Life Merit Points is calculated with "compound interest", each point adding 5% to the TOTAL value.
The exact same case is here. Instead you don't have a series of 5%'s to add, but in instead single values of 5%, 10% and 50%.
There is no SINGLE PERK to add 65%, that's not a perk. There is 3 different perks that consists of 5%, 10% and 50%, which when compounded gives 57.25%.

Just like the Life Merit Points, where 1 point is %5, 2 points is 10.25% and so on. Until 10 points which gives 62.89% increase in health.
You see, the Life Merit perk correctly calculates the "text" by compounding the interest.

100% + 5%+5%+5%+5%+5%+5%+5%+5%+5%+5% is NOT 10*5%=50%
But the correct result is 62.89% increase. Just as the perks text says.
This is the exact same thing I'm asking for the bail reduction cost.


There is no "it just depends on the way you look at it". It's wrong! There is no 15% bail reduction, there is no 65% reduction.

And no it's NOT possible to get minus percent under "my system"!

It would be 5 minutes of work.

Try to focus on the problem instead of trying to focus on something that has never been mentioned in this thread. The perks TEXT in the perks list is WRONG for bail reduction. It DOESN'T show the actual result.

If you still don't understand, send this to one of your developers.

Last Edited: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:16:06
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Rekker

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Posted on Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:48:20
Alot of people do get confused about the stacked percentage result so it would be good to couple the perks that stack together to show the stacked result

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NewehAccount

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Posted on Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:26:39
By Chedburn [1]
In my opinion, it is perfectly fine - It just depends on the way you look at it. If there's 15%, and then 65% on the list... It deducts 15%, and then deducts 65%, which makes total sense?

[snip]

I'm not sure how to proceed, this would be days and days of work. What do other people think?



He is basically agreeing with you. He doesn't want you to add the perks up then deduct it from the bail cost.

However the perk text shows the incorrect value. Just take the calculation you use from the bail out and use it on the perk text on the homepage as currently the text on the homepage shows an incorrect amount (ie 15% when it should be 14.5%). It shouldn't require any rewriting of any system unless the perk text on the homepage is done in a really weird way.

Last Edited: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:27:56
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Chedburn

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Posted on Mon Oct 14, 2013 02:00:45
By Plornt [1445055]
By Chedburn [1]
In my opinion, it is perfectly fine - It just depends on the way you look at it. If there's 15%, and then 65% on the list... It deducts 15%, and then deducts 65%, which makes total sense?

[snip]

I'm not sure how to proceed, this would be days and days of work. What do other people think?



He is basically agreeing with you. He doesn't want you to add the perks up then deduct it from the bail cost.

However the perk text shows the incorrect value. Just take the calculation you use from the bail out and use it on the perk text on the homepage as currently the text on the homepage shows an incorrect amount (ie 15% when it should be 14.5%). It shouldn't require any rewriting of any system unless the perk text on the homepage is done in a really weird way.


No, that can't be done under the current perk display system. That'd be far more advanced than the current system is capable of (which is just display the exact perk stats). I.e. When printing out the perk value, it doesn't know what other perks you have. The only alternative is to remake the entire system (which seems like a hell of a lot of work for something that I think will appear more complicated for users), or replace all company, education / e.t.c. bust specials with a new system.

There is NOT a SINGLE PERK that adds 15% deduction, there is TWO PERKS each adding 10% and 5% deduction!


There are separate perks that stretch across different perk categories. Are you suggesting we only alter the single education bail cost perk to take in to account the bonuses?

I forgot that the three education perks are not split in to three different sections, and are displayed as a single 65%. It's probably possible to alter this single perk and leave the company one for 50% alone.

- Actually, it's probably easier to change the bailing so that bail costs are reduced by 65% (not compounded) and then have the company one simply half that value. That'd be very easy to do.

Last Edited: Mon Oct 14, 2013 02:20:45
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Master

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Posted on Thu Oct 17, 2013 15:39:16
I think CyberDude is right but it doesnt really need a change, its good enough, closest to the orginal value.

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Bloods
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Posted on Thu Oct 17, 2013 18:51:05
By Syndicate [1544579]
I think CyberDude is right but it doesnt really need a change, its good enough, closest to the orginal value.


I also agree with him.

No point listing the 15% off if it's not removing the full 15%...

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Penicillin

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 03:40:47
By cyberdude [1613175]
God damn! How hard can it be to understand????

If you still don't understand, send this to one of your developers.


You are a real douchebag. Learn some damn manners. If this is how you talk to people in real life you are going to get beat up a lot...assuming you ever leave your mothers basement.

Nobody gives a rats ass about 14.5% vs 15%.

Get over yourself and your asshat script.

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meninblack123

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 03:44:59
By Penicillin [1517799]
By cyberdude [1613175]
God damn! How hard can it be to understand????

If you still don't understand, send this to one of your developers.


You are a real douchebag. Learn some damn manners. If this is how you talk to people in real life you are going to get beat up a lot...assuming you ever leave your mothers basement.

Nobody gives a rats ass about 14.5% vs 15%.

Get over yourself and your asshat script.




very well said



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cyberdude

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:01:15
By Penicillin [1517799]
By cyberdude [1613175]
God damn! How hard can it be to understand????

If you still don't understand, send this to one of your developers.


You are a real douchebag. Learn some damn manners. If this is how you talk to people in real life you are going to get beat up a lot...assuming you ever leave your mothers basement.

Nobody gives a rats ass about 14.5% vs 15%.

Get over yourself and your asshat script.

I think you didn't read the part about 57.25% versus 65%, right?
Chedburn some times appear to be oblivious to bugs reported, shunning them off, without even looking in to them. This is not just the difference between 14.5% and 15%, it's a bug! Because of wrong calculation methods used.

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Link

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:08:43
By Penicillin [1517799]
You are a real douchebag. Learn some damn manners. If this is how you talk to people in real life you are going to get beat up a lot...assuming you ever leave your mothers basement.

Nobody gives a rats ass about 14.5% vs 15%.

Get over yourself and your asshat script.


This is bugs and issues and cyberdude has reported an actual bug/issue. I CARE about the difference, so that's at least one other person. So take your concerns over forum etiquette to his mailbox.

@Ched: is it possible to have this fixed somehow for the sake of my OCD?

Last Edited: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:09:27
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Penicillin

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 14:13:54
By cyberdude [1613175]
By Penicillin [1517799]
By cyberdude [1613175]
God damn! How hard can it be to understand????

If you still don't understand, send this to one of your developers.


You are a real douchebag. Learn some damn manners. If this is how you talk to people in real life you are going to get beat up a lot...assuming you ever leave your mothers basement.

Nobody gives a rats ass about 14.5% vs 15%.

Get over yourself and your asshat script.

I think you didn't read the part about 57.25% versus 65%, right?
Chedburn some times appear to be oblivious to bugs reported, shunning them off, without even looking in to them. This is not just the difference between 14.5% and 15%, it's a bug! Because of wrong calculation methods used.


Why are you surprised at this? Probably everything that has more than one applicable perk is calculated in this same manner. For example, we have all known about education reduction being calculated this way for a long, long time but people don't make nitpicking threads about it. Just accept that this is how the calculation is performed. Yes, maybe the description could be more accurate, but a lot more of them will need to be changed than just this one. Should each description contain several caveats?

By Link [1413750]
So take your concerns over forum etiquette to his mailbox.


No, I will not. He has publicly ridiculed and disrespected the developer of the game so he should be publicly called out on it. His tone is arrogant and unacceptable. Maybe when he gets a bit older (I assume he is 15 (no offense to 15 year olds)) he will realize that if he wants to get something done he won't slap the hand of the person who provides it.

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cyberdude

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 14:56:28
You are funny Penicillin
I am apologize for my tone, but I already explained it to Chedburn 5 times, and he kept on turning it all around. The posts he made was wrong, and he didn't understand and acknowledge what I wrote. Apparently you forgot to read the rest of the thread also. You think what you want, about me.


By Penicillin [1517799]
Why are you surprised at this? Probably everything that has more than one applicable perk is calculated in this same manner.

Like how 2 times Life merits is adding up 5% + 5% which results in the CORRECT value of:
Merit: + 10.25% life

Or 8 times Life Merits shows:
Merit: + 47.75% life

You see, SOME or MOST of the Perks text ARE correct. However the one I created this thread about in particular is NOT.

Oh, right. I forgot, everything is calculated in the same manner.... My apologies....

Last Edited: Tue Oct 22, 2013 15:07:22
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Penicillin

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2013 16:44:04
You conveniently ignored the word "probably". There are certainly other things calculated in the same manner, like education reduction.

I will not reply again to this thread as I do not want to take it further off topic. My intent was point out your insolent tone, for which you have apologized.

Last Edited: Tue Oct 22, 2013 16:44:33
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DEA7TH

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Posted on Sat Nov 02, 2013 15:05:17
I just skimmed the thread, but from what I read, I kind of agree with OP here. If the bonuses don't add up (btw it rarely makes sense for them to add up), they should be displayed the way it works. A 5% reduction and then a 10% reduction means 95% of 90%, which is 0.95 * 0.9 = 0.855 (or 14.5% reduction).

If the perk description adds them up rather than multiplying them, this is a bug. If fixing it would look weird to the player, then that makes it hard to fix. One may argue that the fix is worse than the bug itself. I personally would prefer to have the correct values displayed.

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Points

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Posted on Wed Nov 27, 2013 13:19:53
The OP is right that perhaps a clearer descript is needed, however, it's not the end of the world!

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JimmyJames

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Posted on Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:04:50
Why not just change the text on the two educations that stack into the same perk? That way at least the 15% is 14.5%.

While we're at it though, this one is incorrect also:
Education: + 20% Medical Item Effectiveness

There's two 10% additions that stack, meaning it's actually 21% increased effectiveness.

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AshleyT

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Posted on Sat Jan 04, 2014 15:43:19
I think I understand but I have no way to explain it. If the actual result is different from what is displayed on perk text then something should be done about it. Chedburn is confusing me here but I'll put that to the fact I'm inexperienced.

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alaskanight3
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Posted on Fri Jan 10, 2014 08:06:09
i dont understand the argument here. I agree with cyber, I think maybe it could at least be changed to the correct value. ie instead of saying 15% say 14.5 as well as the other larger diffrences...sounds like alot of ass kissing round this bitch going on. but i support cyber as well. good luck friend

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Posted on Tue Mar 04, 2014 05:19:38
I get both sides of the argument being a programmer.

I would see 3 outcomes for the dev:

1) Totally ignore this and continue as usual (Most Likely)

2) Change the text to display the mathematically correct value as thread suggests (probable, but an explanation would be needed when doing the education course)

3) Separate each perk instead of grouping. (Showing 3 rows, 5%, 10%, 50%) in a section. (least likely and probably most confusing to a user)

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Chedburn

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Posted on Tue Mar 11, 2014 13:42:16
This is now all resolved!

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Forum Main>>Bugs & Issues>> Bail Reduction percentage is wrong
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