Thread created on Mon Sep 03, 2012 17:38:32 Last replied to on Tue Jan 15, 2013 21:26:37
I am talking because of the medical update.
First, let me get that clear. I do love the idea that now you can actually harm someone in TC. And I don't mind the fact that he can get out of it with more money (paying for revives), in fact I support it, stronger players are supposed to be tougher to crack anyway. I think Torn needed this very much. I remember personally mocking a player, because when he bountied me, he was actually helping me get the med update - eventually he gave up. That is, if the update only works for hosp times introduced by hospitalizing from someone who did it to harm you.
However, this also introduces a difference in warring - I'm not sure how big would be it, but I sure remember many occasions where an opposing faction has all its members in hosp at the same time (maybe excluding someone who is too strong), we've all been there. Of course, after all every player can hit at least 6 players per vico, so we always keep a few members for the bonus hits. This makes low-level players useless in big faction wars. For the most currently active factions, this means you can't war until you've been active in Torn for at least a year, taking Xanax regularly and everything.
Not only that, but if you're rich enough you can simply bounty opposing faction members. Also, you can afford more FHCs and the rule doesn't even apply for you if you can afford revives. If the opponent faction is in hosp, their chain will be probably - so the faction with highest stat members benefits a lot. It used to be like that before, but now it's a viable strategy to keep someone's members in hosp all the time, because they'll run out of med cooldown faster than you will run out of energy. As I said in a previous post, this update isn't just benefiting the stronger players, it's meant for the top 1% and it's bad for the rest 99%.
But let's make my main point. The committee is a group who is supposed to be unbiased and represent the opinions of the players, like me and you. They are supposed to make the game better for everyone. However, everyone except one player voted FOR that update, and when this was posted in the forum, MOST of the actual TC players were against it. Therefore, I believe the committee isn't anymore representing what the players want.
I've seen their arguments for the medical update (strangely enough, I didn't see them arguing against it) - they said it won't affect warring. Oh, really? And they even put a 6 hour cooldown on Neumine Tablets, supposedly to "punish scammers". And I never saw the obvious idea to make the cooldown only trigger if you're in the hospital because you've been hospitalized by a TC player who isn't at war with you. I am a programmer and I know that it's extremely easy to write. Unfortunately, I do not think it that lack of creativity was the reason this was never proposed.
Oh, but it will be such a pity if this wonderful update goes away. The idea is great, but IMO the negatives outweight the positives. And can be removed only if they make the cooldown trigger only when hosped with no factions involved. I am also willing to give up on my position if I get convinced that I'm wrong, because I do not aim to enforce my opinion, only the truth.
For one this wasn't even initially proposed by the committee. And secondly, its no longer a "player" committee as you can see by the thread they are letting staff vote now as well. So to wonder if the "player(coughs)" committee is doing their job,why don't you ask staff as they are just as much a part of it now;)
The staff are players as well. I'm not only aiming to the non-staff members of the committee.
Also forgot to mention that staff can always fed anyone for bountying them, because of the rule "you can't bounty staff members for them doing their job". But there's no way of knowing anyone's reason for doing something and they can do pretty much nothing if they got fedded unreasonably.
The committee is doing exactly what they were brought in to do. Did anyone actually think they would be any good? Admin choose who get into the committee, at the end of the day, they are used as message boys just so shit updates can be marked as 'Committee approved'. I never would of made it into the committee, I applied, but obviously was turned down. 2 words for the committee: Tunnel Vision.
By Evil-Duck [1182047]
The committee is doing exactly what they were brought in to do. Did anyone actually think they would be any good? Admin choose who get into the committee, at the end of the day, they are used as message boys just so shit updates can be marked as 'Committee approved'.
By DEA7TH [90220]
The staff are players as well. I'm not only aiming to the non-staff members of the committee.
Also forgot to mention that staff can always fed anyone for bountying them, because of the rule "you can't bounty staff members for them doing their job". But there's no way of knowing anyone's reason for doing something and they can do pretty much nothing if they got fedded unreasonably.
Nah.Was initially set up to have "players",not staff. You couldn't be staff and be on the committee and vice versa. And also you can bounty staff just not for doing their job. Such as giving you a warning,chat/forum bans etc. and so on;)
By Evil-Duck [1182047]
The committee is doing exactly what they were brought in to do. Did anyone actually think they would be any good? Admin choose who get into the committee, at the end of the day, they are used as message boys just so shit updates can be marked as 'Committee approved'.
By your own admission the answer here would be "Yes", the committee are doing their jobs, and a good one at that. You like this update, you think that it's a good thing for hospitalisation to mean something again. The lower half of your post is merely an attempt to try and jump on the committee/staff hating band wagon.
So let me address a few of your points and ask a few questions of my own...
Firstly regarding neumune. Yes, we put a cooldown on that (too low imo), it's a medical item... Why wouldn't we?
If you're against bountying opposing faction members why are you for this update? Surely that could potentially work out as beneficial for you? There is nothing forcing you to med out immediately either... and you'd still need to be hosped around 15+ times a day before this started to have any noticeable effect on you. Does this happen to you even during war? Respect gains get lower the more you're attacked during a chain (Ceasing at 5+ hits in a single chain)... it's less preferable to keep attacking the person that yields no/less respect surely...
I don't understand why the cooldown not existing for factions is an issue? Factions have also become too soft... many have said this... many agree with this... would you prefer the days where factions could be destroyed through war to return?
Other points...
No, not all staff are on the committee, only staff members who are also committee members get any say in the votes... there are only about 4 staff on committee? I am on committee, I have a decent idea of what is best for the game, I am active, and most importantly I am a player of this game, why should being staff have any influence over my decisions? Why should I personally not be on the committee?
Staff cannot fed anyone for bountying them, only in response to doing your job... and it's painfully obvious when it happens 'bogie locks XXX's thread, XXX bounties bogie 5 minutes later'... that would result in a warning... if I cared enough to report it (which I usually don't tbh, I like many staff members are the same in that aspect, but if you're just going to take the piss in response to something we volunteer to do, we won't really stand for it)
Committee aren't primarily chosen by admins, those who are shown to be active with constructive arguments/suggestions and such are nominated for the committee. The people who have the game's best interests/have the most to offer are committee members.
Many committee members do not agree with each others ideas, you all seem to think that this was a 'quick' update, it took many many many months, several discussions/ideas thrown in and thrown out before finally settling upon something that is most preferable.
At the end of the day, this is a lot of fuss over nothing. Let this update run it's course, give it a few weeks before passing further judgement upon it. I think many of you will find it does not affect your gameplay at all, and come to enjoy the potential you can gain from it. (e.g. hosping scammers)
By bogie [148747] Many committee members do not agree with each others ideas, you all seem to think that this was a 'quick' update, it took many many many months, several discussions/ideas thrown in and thrown out before finally settling upon something that is most preferable.
Putting a 60 min cooldown period on Morphines took many months to come up with?
By bogie [148747] Many committee members do not agree with each others ideas, you all seem to think that this was a 'quick' update, it took many many many months, several discussions/ideas thrown in and thrown out before finally settling upon something that is most preferable.
Putting a 60 min cooldown period on Morphines took many months to come up with?
Peace
QFT.
My own personal opinion is that I actually won't be harmed from this update. However, there are some certain instances where it is entirely possible to be hosped and reach the cap fast. For example, when retal'd - when morphing out (and you're in an HoF faction) chances are that your profile will/is being stocked. If you have trouble flying after, you try to med a couple times.
As I typed that, I think it wasn't a great example. But then what about the newer players? True, I don't care much for them either, but the concern is still there. It would be so easy to pick on them. Around the forums/IRC, if you annoyed someone, you could end up seeing white for the rest of your TC career.. as short as it may be.
Hiring 35k+ stats for oil rig - 900k daily. Check out my profile
By Maybe [1307106]
My own personal opinion is that I actually won't be harmed from this update. However, there are some certain instances where it is entirely possible to be hosped and reach the cap fast. For example, when retal'd - when morphing out (and you're in an HoF faction) chances are that your profile will/is being stocked. If you have trouble flying after, you try to med a couple times.
As I typed that, I think it wasn't a great example. But then what about the newer players? True, I don't care much for them either, but the concern is still there. It would be so easy to pick on them. Around the forums/IRC, if you annoyed someone, you could end up seeing white for the rest of your TC career.. as short as it may be.
Well, the first problem newbs have is the lack of money to buy meds.
And now there are lifelong trolls, who will only stop once they're in fed.
If newbs start to be annoying, they'll see a white wall for a while, and let's hope they learnt their lesson then.
If you walk in a bar with tough guys and call them weak babys, you should be crying because they hit you if the face.
I personally don't see why I (or anyone else) would start to bounty newbs they don't know and didn't do anything special.
By bogie [148747]
Firstly regarding neumune. Yes, we put a cooldown on that (too low imo), it's a medical item... Why wouldn't we?
The update doesn't aim to put a cooldown on medical items. Only on items that get you out of the hosp after getting hospitalized. The stated purpose of the update has nothing do to with dirty bombs or factions, then why change an aspect that concerns only dirty bombs and factions?
By bogie [148747]
If you're against bountying opposing faction members why are you for this update? Surely that could potentially work out as beneficial for you? There is nothing forcing you to med out immediately either... and you'd still need to be hosped around 15+ times a day before this started to have any noticeable effect on you. Does this happen to you even during war? Respect gains get lower the more you're attacked during a chain (Ceasing at 5+ hits in a single chain)... it's less preferable to keep attacking the person that yields no/less respect surely...
Assuming the average hosp time from hospitalizing is 3:30-5:00 (not counting upgrades for that), it takes about 3 morphs to get out, so 180 minutes med cooldown. The energy it takes for a hosp (on Vico) is regenerated for 50 minutes, therefore one needs to utilize about 27.8% of his energy potential to keep someone permahosp - not counting refills. I didn't know that the bonus from hitting a single target reduces from consecutive hits, but it's still a viable strategy to keep the opponent's faction in the hospital.
However, I don't have experience with big wars where two factions with active members clash, and I might be wrong here. Someone who does might know better than me. This is a weak point of my argument, but I do feel that medical cooldown will make a difference in top factions.
By bogie [148747]
I don't understand why the cooldown not existing for factions is an issue? Factions have also become too soft... many have said this... many agree with this... would you prefer the days where factions could be destroyed through war to return?
I don't see a reason for making factions less soft, but even if there is one, this update mostly changes the war itself, rather than factions.
By bogie [148747]
No, not all staff are on the committee, only staff members who are also committee members get any say in the votes... there are only about 4 staff on committee? I am on committee, I have a decent idea of what is best for the game, I am active, and most importantly I am a player of this game, why should being staff have any influence over my decisions? Why should I personally not be on the committee?
I didn't mean to imply that. My opinion is that committee is not doing its job, but I don't know whether having staff members in it has an effect on that. Probably not, because I don't believe in the whole "conspiracy from evil staff" thing - in real life, conspiracies are very rare and I am an opponent of the idea that Ched decides to have a new rule and then tells the committee to vote on it and they do so, pretending they did it for the good of Torn.
It's more that the committee's opinions doesn't represent the players, they probably represent their own interests, as they are typically high-level and rich.
By bogie [148747]
Staff cannot fed anyone for bountying them, only in response to doing your job... and it's painfully obvious when it happens 'bogie locks XXX's thread, XXX bounties bogie 5 minutes later'... that would result in a warning... if I cared enough to report it (which I usually don't tbh, I like many staff members are the same in that aspect, but if you're just going to take the piss in response to something we volunteer to do, we won't really stand for it)
I know, but it's impossible for them to prove that they bountied someone rightfully. More importantly, people are be afraid that they might get fedded if they bounty a staff member.
By bogie [148747]At the end of the day, this is a lot of fuss over nothing. Let this update run it's course, give it a few weeks before passing further judgement upon it. I think many of you will find it does not affect your gameplay at all, and come to enjoy the potential you can gain from it. (e.g. hosping scammers)
I absolutely agree with that, although I almost never bounty people (bounties places: 2) or hosp people without personal benefit. However, in a few weeks it will be too late and it will be considered as an accepted update. Also people will get over it, when they shouldn't. But hypothetically I'd certainly love to see if the update has any effect on me, when we start a big war.
I'm glad to see we more-or-less seem to be on the same level here (@OP)
But again, back to neumune... the update DOES aim to put a cooldown on medical items... it's a medical ITEM cooldown update... neumune comes under this category. It removes hospital time (doesn't matter what type), it's a medical item, it gets a cooldown... that stays with the rest of them.
I'm pretty sure it's as obvious to the player as it is to the staff member for WHY they bountied us As I also said though, they'd get a warning first anyway... that'd clear it up...
By bogie [148747]
it's a medical ITEM cooldown update
I only saw justifications for a non-faction-induced hospitalizing update, not for a medical item update. Why have additional, unintended effects? Especially if med item cooldown won't have any effect on 99% of the players, including people who use Neumine.
There are two main issues I see with the update:
1. It affects factions in a way that a single player (the strongest one) can make a huge difference. I do agree that the current system favors quantity over quality, but still I don't think that quality needs to be made that more important than willingness to chain and activity. Especially given that this means you won't be out of hosp for a long time if you are a new player, and in Torn, this means "been active for one year old", which is a lot of time.
2. The change that was discussed wasn't about factions at all (as far as I saw). And yet it adds a considerable difference to warring.
Edit: I got a bit offtopic. My point in the thread was that committee is supposed to think like the players. Next to this thread, you can see a ridiculously stupid thread about removing med cooldown and it got mostly thumbs up. I don't propose a solution, I just wanted people to notice it, maybe a solution will come with that.
And why should the medical update affect anyone as opium in unaffected by the new update so people will just use opium instead of morphine. No skin off my nose.
I do like like this, for the sole reason that usually only the better and richer players will be able to afford revives. I do like the idea that trolls will spend a lot more time in hospital though
By Evil-Duck [1182047]
The committee is doing exactly what they were brought in to do. Did anyone actually think they would be any good? Admin choose who get into the committee, at the end of the day, they are used as message boys just so shit updates can be marked as 'Committee approved'. I never would of made it into the committee, I applied, but obviously was turned down. 2 words for the committee: Tunnel Vision.
The committee is made up of very different players, non of whom are "yes men", each with only one purpose in common: The improvement of the game for everyone. There is no way on earth that we can be accused of Tunnel vision. We come from different walks of life, and have a wide variety of skills between us, from programming, to care and man management. We give up a lot of time and potential game play in an attempt to improve the game for everyone, and expect and get nothing in return other than the satisfaction of having helped improve things (and a bit of respect from players would be nice). Sure, we are never going to be able to please everyone all of the time, but the Committee and the staff are doing all they can to move this game forward, and upwards. ALL updates are discussed in relation to their effects on the game as a whole.
The funniest part about being a players committee is that this cooldown has been up for vote before and was voted down because it would hurt to many things. It's funny to see ched put new people on the committee and staff able to vote so the cooldown update gets pushed through.
By aeknight [482424]
The funniest part about being a players committee is that this cooldown has been up for vote before and was voted down because it would hurt to many things. It's funny to see ched put new people on the committee and staff able to vote so the cooldown update gets pushed through.
I vote the way I think. NOBODY will ever tell me which way to vote! I use my own judgement, and only when I have digested ALL the info and facts do I decide what vote is in the best interests of the game. I know that all other committee members are of a similar stance to me here.
as far as i know the commitee had far shittier ideas then this one, like making meds adding to addiction, and rehab decay, therefore, at some point you wouldnt be able to use meds at all
R U avin a giggle ther m8? ill bash ye fookin ead in i sware on me mum.
By aeknight [482424]
The funniest part about being a players committee is that this cooldown has been up for vote before and was voted down because it would hurt to many things. It's funny to see ched put new people on the committee and staff able to vote so the cooldown update gets pushed through.
I vote the way I think. NOBODY will ever tell me which way to vote! I use my own judgement, and only when I have digested ALL the info and facts do I decide what vote is in the best interests of the game. I know that all other committee members are of a similar stance to me here.
I'm not saying y'all don't vote the way y'all want. I'm saying ched/clansy only put people on the committee who have billions and think the same way. Then you have staff now able to vote.
Basically the few people that voted for the minority of players are gone and they replaced them with elite players. That's why you get updates like this that promote the elite player. The 1% I'm in this too. But still doesn't mean I think this is a good update.
This update has been voted on in the committee multiple times and has been voted down. Now that it is elitist only it got voted through. Just doesn't sound like an update that should have ever been passed.
By aeknight [482424]
The funniest part about being a players committee is that this cooldown has been up for vote before and was voted down because it would hurt to many things. It's funny to see ched put new people on the committee and staff able to vote so the cooldown update gets pushed through.
I vote the way I think. NOBODY will ever tell me which way to vote! I use my own judgement, and only when I have digested ALL the info and facts do I decide what vote is in the best interests of the game. I know that all other committee members are of a similar stance to me here.
I'm not saying y'all don't vote the way y'all want. I'm saying ched/clansy only put people on the committee who have billions and think the same way. Then you have staff now able to vote.
Basically the few people that voted for the minority of players are gone and they replaced them with elite players. That's why you get updates like this that promote the elite player. The 1% I'm in this too. But still doesn't mean I think this is a good update.
This update has been voted on in the committee multiple times and has been voted down. Now that it is elitist only it got voted through. Just doesn't sound like an update that should have ever been passed.
......
Vault: $0
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I do not have "billions" in this game, not am I "elite" Spy me and see if you want! This update may not please every player, but has been well thought out and will benefit the game in general. Personally I don't expect players who troll the forums, amassing enemies to be too impressed with it though, lol
Ha I could have 5k enemies and just pay for revives. Now the noobs who just asked a simple question in GD. Now they will be screwed.
And no you didn't think of everything. Y'all didn't think of faction wars. And you thought of the noobs. But just figured it wouldn't be that bad. You are a lvl 77 with decent stats. You are elitist and have nothing to worry about this update.
See I can talk all day on here and say stupid stuff and I don't get bountied. Now the people who are under lvl 25 can't say anything or they get perms bountied.
I think the Committee is quite good. Although when I was in it, if you disagreed with something just be prepared for Bogie to chew your head of as he is NEVER wrong. It's players vs committee vs a few crazy staff members.
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By Uncle_Fester [224542]
Whatever.. I made my point..
What your point that the committee is a group of elitist that vote on things they think will help them? Or at the very least all you think about is that this won't affect me atleast do I don't care what happens as long as it doesn't affect me.
Just my point is that this was something that was voted down by the committe and now brought back by a different committee that has only elitist players and elitist thinking players.
I think the committee is no longer a well rounded group and only has players who think the same because they are in the same boat.
I think there needs to be a better balance between comitee and the players who are not one there.
There was a massive difference in the people on the comitee who voted for the medical update. Only 1 on there voted against it. Whereas, the poll in a previuos thread there was a much higher difference. Majority of the peeple who voted against it. Now if the comitee is meant to be the 'voice' of the players, clearly there is a massive difference in there opinions and those of the players. Yes, some alot also wanted the update but much more did not and it is amzing how it was completely opposite on the comitee.
Whats the point of the comitee if they are voting for somthing which majority of the people did not want? Why is it there? just for show?becuase clearly on this occasion especailly. Are they repesenting the actualy opinions of the majority of torn i doubt it, atleast there should have been more difference in the vote for the update.
They are there just for a debate, i guess becuase if they are there to be the voice. No it is not working...
When exactly was it voted down?
No committee member votes in their own interest, and all are very experienced players, who have between us, experienced all that Torn has to offer. Remember, we were all noobs once!
By Uncle_Fester [224542]
When exactly was it voted down?
No committee member votes in their own interest, and all are very experienced players, who have between us, experienced all that Torn has to offer. Remember, we were all noobs once!
Yes and when you were a noob things were much different. It was a different game.
![DEA7TH [90220]](http://awardimages.torn.com/90220-69187-large.png "DEA7TH [90220]")
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Staff edit
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lol![bogie [148747]](http://awardimages.torn.com/148747-93470-large.png "bogie [148747]")
![Maybe [1307106]](http://awardimages.torn.com/1307106-12910-large.png "Maybe [1307106]")
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As I also said though, they'd get a warning first anyway... that'd clear it up...
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