| Forum Main>>Announcements>> Warning: Faction scamming laws |
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Aoshi
ID: 1299806
Level: 38
Posts: 2134
Score: 887
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:10:23
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By Valesh [96818]
So since it starts on the 12th... it was illegal what happened today and will be dealt with right?
Here is why this can't be allowed to happen
Theft from faction bank/armoury
Taking cash/points/items in a faction without the leaders approval, gaining leadership under false pretenses and refusing to return control of the faction to the rightful leader etc. |
I was told by a couple secretaries, that this was not a faction theft. The reason behind this is that said player sent me 90billion of my own money while I was sleeping. Since he had access to the faction bank (with his 5bil in the faction) it was ok for him to send me my 90billion while I was sleeping, while he had muggers ready.
The point here is this. I did NOT give him permission to touch MY money in the faction. By giving me my money, he was putting his hands on my money, not his. Thus stealing my money from the faction to send to me. This was not his to do so with, especially without my permission. As said in the above rule, Theft from Faction Bank/Amoury.
Now lets throw another point out there. Since I didn't send the money to myself, who is to say that that money was mine to begin with that he sent?? Perhaps it was the factions cash, not mine? Thus JusticeR just stole 90b from the Affliction faction, and sent it to me (Valesh). Thus I should still have 90billion in the faction.. as it wasn't my money that was sent to me at all, as I didn't send it nor authorize that I wanted MY... so there is no ownership of that money, besides to say that it is from the Affliction faction, not JusticeRs money... that we know for sure. So he did steal 85billion from the faction to send to me (Valesh). Thus JusticeR should be fedded for faction theft, as it wasn't his money, nor mine that he sent me.. but money that was the factions.
Game Bug Abuse
Failing to report a fluke/loophole in the game and taking advantage of it is forbidden. |
This brings me to my third and almostfinal point. It is obvious that this was set up by said player who mugged me first (Sifonjer) and said player who sent me the cash (JusticeR). Exactly 23 seconds after the cash was given out, I was mugged, until that 90billion turned into 13million, all the while I am sleeping. So since this is a gray area, with no set code of rules, it is obviously a loophole that has been exploited. See rule here... as they knew that staff would say that there is nothing they can do about it.
Thus, both of them should be fedded.
05/06/10
11:58:35 PM Valesh was given $90,650,000,000 from the Faction.
And of course the muggings go on until there is nothing left to be mugged.
05/06/10
11:58:58 PM Someone mugged Valesh
05/06/10
11:59:42 PM Someone mugged Valesh
My final point, is this. By allowing this to happen, staff, admin and rule setters are allowing this to be a precedent that is being set... making this OK to happen to everyone. Is this really a rule you want to be ok with? Not being able to trust anyone with access to the faction? Obviously multiple rules have been broken here, by multiple players that should punished. By not punishing them, and allowing this to happen, this is only going to get worse and happen more often.
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this must be solved before the updates i think...
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Madmiketyson
ID: 979994
Level: 77
Posts: 6706
Score: 3558
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:12:02
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By -rob- [65426]
Good lesson to be learned here too. Never assume you're safe from something just because it's against the rules.
Not being sarcastic here either.
But other players and staff can't screw you over if you never give them the chance.
I think the only issue is that you'd have to be crazy to report a bug that could potentially be used against you now, since staff wasted no time in joining the muggings here.
Why would anyone risk that their bug would be ruled legal and then used against them?
Not worth the risk.
Let the red and green names find stuff on their own. |
I have been following this matter on my phone at work all day and I think you should be made admin straight away.
You have hit the nail on the head so many times today......Tis a shame the actual staff are not as intelligent as you.
I lost a lot of respect for staff today. From the day I started playing, I heard from various angles that staff were corrupt and I always assumed people were just paranoid, misguided or retarded.
I was the retard for believing staff were people I could rely on.
I have no problem with the rules being changed regarding faction theft. It just means I am less likely to ever be in a faction with anyone besides one or two people I have real life contact with.......But if that is how Ched thinks it should be, so be it.
Its a shame as the faction warring overhaul sounded really interesting and now I am unlikely to participate in it.
But to change the rules and tell Valesh to suck nuts with regards money he believed he was covered by under exisiting rules is outrageous....And for staff to mug him when asked for their help is beyond a joke.
A dark day in the games history for sure. As rob said if I found a bug that could be used against me, I doubt Id report it now.......And thats sad.
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Dark_Princess
ID: 1268122
Level: 20
Posts: 16
Score: 4
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:15:44
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I know some scammer guys that are happy to hear this...:(
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Philster
ID: 18066
Level: 54
Posts: 1865
Score: 1011
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:16:10
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By philster [18066]
does anyone think that the price of SYS will go through the roof because of this? |
i know im quoting myself, but i didnt really get a gauge on peoples opinionsxD
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Rick_Diculous
ID: 984129
Level: 80
Posts: 17964
Score: 9070
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:16:13
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Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg
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http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=4&ID=14168814
Make it happen Ched |
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Chuck_Me
ID: 1446180
Level: 8
Posts: 38
Score: 29
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:18:47
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hmmm, I was gonna join a faction soon, but I guess I won't now..I don't have much cash but I need what I have and can't have people stealing it from me...oh well....
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Madmiketyson
ID: 979994
Level: 77
Posts: 6706
Score: 3558
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:19:02
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By Wall_Street [984129]
Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg |
Rated +
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Forphucsake
ID: 856025
Level: 49
Posts: 572
Score: 140
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:19:39
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f**ked.
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sixty-nine
ID: 370219
Level: 62
Posts: 2837
Score: 1469
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:20:50
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By Wall_Street [984129]
Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg |
you couldnt have put it better
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Ankherias
ID: 122329
Level: 58
Posts: 72
Score: 10
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:21:59
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Bo hoo to those who lost their money. How about not letting someone you don't trust have access to 90 bil.
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Saren_Arterius
ID: 1001196
Level: 45
Posts: 815
Score: 448
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:22:35
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By Wall_Street [984129]
Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg |
+++++ Aye to this. I will not donate again.
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DocHoliday
ID: 1015507
Level: 77
Posts: 4294
Score: 2642
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:23:15
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By sixty-nine [370219]
By Wall_Street [984129]
Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg |
you couldnt have put it better |
for the record, and feel free to look it up....I have donated about $3000 to this game, that stops today based on this decision...not a threat, a fact, donations are optional, just like the choice to not deal with this matter appropriately was optional
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-rob-
ID: 65426
Level: 81
Posts: 11459
Score: 3999
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:24:49
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By Madmiketyson [979994]
By -rob- [65426]
Good lesson to be learned here too. Never assume you're safe from something just because it's against the rules.
Not being sarcastic here either.
But other players and staff can't screw you over if you never give them the chance.
I think the only issue is that you'd have to be crazy to report a bug that could potentially be used against you now, since staff wasted no time in joining the muggings here.
Why would anyone risk that their bug would be ruled legal and then used against them?
Not worth the risk.
Let the red and green names find stuff on their own. |
I have been following this matter on my phone at work all day and I think you should be made admin straight away.
You have hit the nail on the head so many times today......Tis a shame the actual staff are not as intelligent as you.
I lost a lot of respect for staff today. From the day I started playing, I heard from various angles that staff were corrupt and I always assumed people were just paranoid, misguided or retarded.
I was the retard for believing staff were people I could rely on.
I have no problem with the rules being changed regarding faction theft. It just means I am less likely to ever be in a faction with anyone besides one or two people I have real life contact with.......But if that is how Ched thinks it should be, so be it.
Its a shame as the faction warring overhaul sounded really interesting and now I am unlikely to participate in it.
But to change the rules and tell Valesh to suck nuts with regards money he believed he was covered by under exisiting rules is outrageous....And for staff to mug him when asked for their help is beyond a joke.
A dark day in the games history for sure. As rob said if I found a bug that could be used against me, I doubt Id report it now.......And thats sad. |
Staff are willing to do the work. I am not.
I actually don't mind the rule change. This is a crime game, we should all be devious.
The only negative I see is in Chedburn's bottom line, because people should be vastly less likely to donate real cash to a game that offers them no protection on their investment.
But I stopped using real cash years ago, and I don't care about Ched's bottom line. Therefore the rule change sort of excites me.
I just think it's absurd that people can't use logic to see that what happened to Valesh was theft, and that it happened before the rule change.
If your bank closed your account and left all your money on you front porch, while you weren't home, and then notified a thief that it was there, they would be liable.
The banker who did it would be arrested and charged. Anyone really care to dispute that?
I love that Torn staff think that banker facing criminal charges could go to court and be acquitted by telling the judge "well sir I warned that guy not to use my bank. I once left his money on the bar at a strip club too."
Last Edited: Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:28:26
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Gixser
ID: 327914
Level: 55
Posts: 380
Score: 55
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:25:01
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Starting 12th of June I will no longer buy DPs.
I would love to see your books Ched
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MasterFuji
ID: 1264172
Level: 34
Posts: 4946
Score: 912
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:25:05
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By Doc-Holiday [1015507]
By sixty-nine [370219]
By Wall_Street [984129]
Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg |
you couldnt have put it better |
for the record, and feel free to look it up....I have donated about $3000 to this game, that stops today based on this decision...not a threat, a fact, donations are optional, just like the choice to not deal with this matter appropriately was optional |
that's right doc, hit em where it hurts, the pocket book!
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Stalker
ID: 1408619
Level: 55
Posts: 449
Score: 178
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:25:16
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lol maybee body bagger will make me co-leader or leader hell i'll take the whole faction lol what a dumb ass thing to do this totaly sucks big time no one will trust anyone
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Hobbie
ID: 443763
Level: 72
Posts: 11097
Score: 2260
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:25:36
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Is it the fact that you guys are against the rule change?
With staff as the failsafe?
Whether there is the necessary options put in place to counteract this is another matter.
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5hane
ID: 1169777
Level: 35
Posts: 1169
Score: 718
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:26:41
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Good work
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Shane, 1169777 .............. Previously Shanegrv |
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Hidden_Assassin
ID: 426559
Level: 54
Posts: 669
Score: 232
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:30:18
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this is good coz it means a faction isn't just a list of names, you need to trust each other befor you get privalage, so your more likely to stay in one faction and get to know each other.
now if your stupid enough to let some one steal all your money, then tough you knew the risks when you gave them the opportunity
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| LOOK AT MY COMMENT ABOVE... :D :D |
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Lunah
ID: 504923
Level: 30
Posts: 876
Score: 422
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:30:23
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By Wall_Street [984129]
Comgrats ched, two months of hard work and great pr erased by what is by far the dumbest thing you haue done in nearly two years i have played. I had full intentions of donating again but after this fiasco i will NEVER donate again. I have heard that valesh isnt very active bc he is currently at war. So while he fights for his country you (sif and justicer) chickenshits sit in your moms basement scamming him. I hope this was well thought out ched, and not done bc you n staff are lazy. You effectively just killed 90 percent of factions, wtg |
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Malfurion
ID: 796969
Level: 60
Posts: 1264
Score: 859
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:31:14
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There was no fluke/loophole in the game coding or setup, so this isn't bug abuse. It's simply abuse of trust. I feel for valesh and any others who have had this happen, but lesson learned: be careful who you let have access to your money!! It was a dirty play..but so is pretty much half the fun things in this game (mugging/bounties/scamming)..
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MasterFuji
ID: 1264172
Level: 34
Posts: 4946
Score: 912
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:32:08
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By Hidden_Assassin [426559]
this is good coz it means a faction isn't just a list of names, you need to trust each other befor you get privalage, so your more likely to stay in one faction and get to know each other.
now if your stupid enough to let some one steal all your money, then tough you knew the risks when you gave them the opportunity |
you can't trust anyone in this game....the only safe place to keep your money these days is in points and hope you don't get mugged when you sell them...
we need to be able to trade points so we can use them as currency themselves.
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Gixser
ID: 327914
Level: 55
Posts: 380
Score: 55
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:33:27
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So since this is a crime game. Can I now buy 100 DPs and report them not received to papal and nothing will come out it from you or the stuff..... I am just saying since scamming is now going to be legal. We can start scamming TC?
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WickedWanda
ID: 889496
Level: 65
Posts: 3162
Score: 1159
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:34:37
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By Madmiketyson [979994]
Whether removing the rule is right or wrong.....valesh should get his cash back and these scumbags should be in fed.....the rules as they stood were broken and the fact staff jumped in on the muggings after being asked for help is outrageous.
I hope ched rectifies this situation to try and keep some respect.......as already stated elsewhere....it would have been intriguing to see how this rule was interpreted if it was a different faction. |
outrageous is one word to use.. makes me sick to my stomach to think those are the people meant to help others in the game....
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~God have mercy on my enemies, because I shall not.~ |
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Baka
ID: 1183749
Level: 72
Posts: 4797
Score: 1929
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:35:53
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Has chedburn made any comment yet ?
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SBAngel
ID: 262759
Level: 73
Posts: 173
Score: 46
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:36:29
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By Chedburn [1]
Staff will be removing any affiliation with faction scamming. They will not step forward in any way. If a co-leader steals the faction bank, staff will not jail anyone and will not credit anyone.
This will start on the 12th of June. Please make sure you fully trust everyone who has access to your faction bank. We're giving you this week to prepare.
Please note, currently anyone who steals from a faction will receive a federal jail sentence, until the 12th of June.
These steps have been put in to action for many reasons. Mainly:
We do not take any action against company scamming, why factions?
The huge difficulty staff go through to resolve these issues.
The instant by-passing of warnings.
The inability to determine who owns the money.
The loopholes around this rule.
The deterrents should be player-made. If someone steals from you, you make them pay yourself.
Many thanks. |
MOST of your response to the situation that has occurred I agree with you. The problem is there is no way for a player to 'make' someone pay on a text-based game over the net, unless you want another situation involving off sites and things that involve a player's personal life.
because really... there isn't much name calling or bountying will do to get yours or your faction's funds back if someone steals them.
plus as far as scamming companies the director is the ONLY one allowed to do anything ie: manage employees, manage funds, etc etc.
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-rob-
ID: 65426
Level: 81
Posts: 11459
Score: 3999
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:37:33
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By Malfurion [796969]
There was no fluke/loophole in the game coding or setup, so this isn't bug abuse. It's simply abuse of trust. I feel for valesh and any others who have had this happen, but lesson learned: be careful who you let have access to your money!! It was a dirty play..but so is pretty much half the fun things in this game (mugging/bounties/scamming).. |
Can people please stop making this point?
Faction-theft was supposedly illegal. Therefore why and the hell would anyone need to be careful about who they gave access to?
There was supposedly a deterrent to faction theft - federal jail.
It was only the removal of this deterrent that made it necessary to take such precautions.
Also, staff's suggestion that people who weren't careful just wanted staff to do the work is also idiotic and self-centered.
It wasn't about expecting staff to fix it, it was about the fact that a federal jail sentence was a deterrent from anyone doing it in the first place.
Are staff's heads really that big?
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Valesh_NoBust
ID: 96818
Level: 62
Posts: 7668
Score: 1305
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:39:58
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By -Clansdancer [65306]
I will say this and then I won't answer any more mails or post again.
Someone posted up there if this had happened to a noob everyone would be flaming him. That is exactly correct, you all would have been telling him what a retard for allowing access to his cash etc etc. It's Valesh though so the story changes.
Fact is leader gives permission when he gives access, when there is a theft we add up deposits and withdrawls to see if they all match. That is with a player taking cash, sending to his own account, and 99% of the time leaving the faction asap after.
We did this with this case too, only he was given cash from his own members and given his own cash. Which I also have had my members do for me while I'm flying w/e (I realize he was offline)
This happened the day before in the same faction with the same player, and we put the money back in the faction advising their access list should be sorted if they money is being given out to people while offline because there isnt much we can do about people receiving their own money.
It happened again the night after.
When is it your responsibility and not ours to take care of your money and your faction? It will forever more be just that, it's not because we are lazy and don't want to deal with it, it's because most faction leaders just hand out access with the fail safe someone takes it we return it. Which is not the case, we return what we can find. You only get what's left on that account. We cannot produce money into the system to make up for it. |
Again, Prime example of how staff deal with this. From botton to top please.
2010-06-06
7:37:23 PM
-Clansdancer says: Mail Ched or Wolfeh ---that means dont mail me.
2010-06-06
7:36:40 PM
Valesh says: Wow, did what I ask really make you take things out on me?
I dont think that response was warranted... but I am sorry that the game is stressing you out so much.
2010-06-06
7:33:34 PM
*Current message you are reading*
-Clansdancer says: No Valesh I wont, Ive been admin for almost 5 years and because of your fake f**king money on a fake game, Ive been told Im a uneducated poor in RL bad mother and tbh I think Im at end with it all.
So mail Ched or wolfeh
*Current message you are reading*
2010-06-06
7:30:42 PM
Valesh says: I see....
So you are still saying this isn't a theft Clansy? That you will not punish said people? In IRC you said this.
I want to see Sifonjer and JusticeR dealt with accordingly.
We all know this was a theft from the faction.
[7:21pm] Clansy: so I may fed some people over it
[7:21pm] Clansy: but I am quite sure you will be surprised at who goes
Clansy: because if 1 goes everyone involved goes
[7:21pm] Clansy: and you still get no cash back
2010-06-06
7:28:24 PM
-Clansdancer says: You are the same player which was the player I was speaking about.
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SteveTheDiva
ID: 207347
Level: 82
Posts: 20692
Score: 5848
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:40:12
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So if they vault was increased to no maximum deposit would everyone then still be complaining?
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jeen
ID: 918581
Level: 50
Posts: 325
Score: 82
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Posted on Sun Jun 06, 2010 19:41:26
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By WickedWanda [889496]
By Madmiketyson [979994]
Whether removing the rule is right or wrong.....valesh should get his cash back and these scumbags should be in fed.....the rules as they stood were broken and the fact staff jumped in on the muggings after being asked for help is outrageous.
I hope ched rectifies this situation to try and keep some respect.......as already stated elsewhere....it would have been intriguing to see how this rule was interpreted if it was a different faction. |
outrageous is one word to use.. makes me sick to my stomach to think those are the people meant to help others in the game.... |
Indeed - there is no way that this can be deemed right .
Valesh and his faction should be given all their money back and the thieves punished.
I am one more person who will not buy another DP for cash again.
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