| Forum Main>>Announcements>> POLL: Merits on non-incremental upgrades |
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-Chain-
ID: 1280897
Level: 40
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Score: 255
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Posted on Tue May 11, 2010 23:02:03
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Edit
Last Edited: Wed Dec 15, 2010 06:02:50
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Overall NBA record. 42-28 |
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Vatican
ID: 99178
Level: 66
Posts: 6015
Score: 372
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Posted on Tue May 11, 2010 23:16:50
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ergh, there are some serious whiners out there... seriously, I havent seen anyone complain about having both systems?
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I sail aslong as I still have breath |
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PopadaPill
ID: 900338
Level: 56
Posts: 18015
Score: 11685
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Posted on Tue May 11, 2010 23:21:45
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By Yos [87683]
Hoping the best decision... but, I'm in for giving back the merits used on non-incremental upgrades before the update. |
If they are taking my hp from them back i want them..no i deserve them or ill you what give me a billion and half and ched can keep wahtever.
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dj-oci
ID: 226519
Level: 50
Posts: 253
Score: 2
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Posted on Tue May 11, 2010 23:26:03
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Dont give them back, but let people keep whatever they have upgraded or spent on.
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Loki
ID: 642350
Level: 58
Posts: 1539
Score: -8
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Posted on Tue May 11, 2010 23:51:06
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By Vatican2BUSY4TC [99178]
By BrianGragg [642350]
By Vaticanlazy [99178]
no... not advantages that others can NEVER catch up on. |
Extend the idea:
Exponential gains in stats would need to be done away with then. If someone earns faster than you it will be impossible to catch them.
Today the game-wide stats distribution is skewed toward the top end. It wouldn't be enough to end exponential stat growth. You'd need to remove stats earned by players.
Money, too is a problem. Many players earn bank returns which are way above their fixed costs(staff,upkeep,dp). Someone with less money spends a higher percentage of their earnings. Their returns would have to be several TIMES that of a wealthy player just to keep pace.
I've always tried to be respectful in this game, because you are often dealing with much stronger people. The high level of inequality in TC, which has many aspects, is troubling.
The answer shouldn't be direct confiscation of benefits accrued to players who were acting in good faith. I hate cheaters. I've gotten people jailed for that. Everyone who wants to get their merits back so they can choose again should consider this: the people that will get shafted have done nothing wrong.
The whole satisfaction of TC comes from extended goal oriented effort. If fairly earned rewards are revocable the whole process is cheapened. |
i didnt read your whole post, i dont have the time today, maybe in a few weeks, but your first point... ridiculous. look at canter... successful player caught up with ID's 5 times older than he was. FACT. need i say more?
EDIT: i read it all actually and my assumption was correct, your post is misjudged:
Hobbie replies to your post well:
By Hobbie [443763]
That is wrong. If one player trains just 10 more energy per day than another, even is the other has billions of a stat - eventually they will catch up and overtake. Extreme example, but I hope it shows the point.
If newer player wants to catch up, they have to out-do the older. It'll be hard, but it's possible.
Exactly the same with money.
But with health....the only way to increase health apart from the new merits and leveling, would be medical points. At level 100, you'll gain 55 HP per day. A bonus of 100k HP would have cost 40 merits at level 50 - perfectly reasonable.
That same HP would take 1818 days to gain from medical. Quite a bit of a difference I think.
And that's assuming they're at level 100 (which no one is yet) and someone only have 100k extra.
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EDIT:
Your post would be irrelevant if what i and many other advocate, bring back the damn old system in addition to the new. No advantages, no disadvantages FOR ALL PLAYERS |
I do agree that both systems, old and new, in parallel would be the best answer. Otherwise(I did take the time to read your post before commenting on it) you're flat wrong.
A new player starting today has an extremely small chance of ever equaling the top end active players in any respect. Hobbie might be technically correct that a gap of billions of stats can be bridged by one extra train per day. To do so would likely require decades so that isn't a very practical argument. Plus if one has years you can gain HP through the med profession.
This whole thread, from Ched's initial post, has assumed that giving back the merits would be the fair thing. I'd like to challenge that on its face. If the way combat was computed was changed to disadvantage certain players, like those with high defense, then there would be no issue. Going to my character and monkeying with the numbers is entirely different from changing how those numbers are expressed in game play. If we must think of the weaker players all of your character's attributes are open to be changed.
There is too much concentrated wealth in TC. The ability to buy xanax in quantity is not a widely held one.
If we address all of these imbalances, and maybe we should, the game will become nothing like it is today.
I'm confident that I can adapt to changing conditions. What I HOPE is that if this goes through it comes back in other forms repeatedly. Have too much cash? Oh well, you did. Have too many stats? No worries, friend, we can fix that.
I'm also confident that going down this road will end up alienating large numbers of established users. All that effort? Well just forget about it because the lower level users are getting restless...
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Evil_Cockney
ID: 420168
Level: 82
Posts: 4207
Score: 921
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 00:11:36
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By BrianGragg [642350]
This whole thread, from Ched's initial post, has assumed that giving back the merits would be the fair hing. I'd like to challenge that on its face. If the way combat was computed was changed to disadvantage certain players, like those with high defense, then there would be no issue. |
Buhahaha, you get my award for biggest hypocrite of the thread.
No no, don't touch my life because it's unfair, just go and cripple a load of players stats instead. 
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Gzzz
ID: 473551
Level: 69
Posts: 1950
Score: 542
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 00:23:25
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My preference in order:
1/ Go back to old system, give people spending in the new system merits back.
2/ Bring back old system in parallel.
3/ Refund merits (this seems extreme in the face of 1+2 above, but there is NO way you can keep the system as is)
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Korimito
ID: 851594
Level: 46
Posts: 224
Score: 15
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 00:32:07
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By FSTWRX [887159]
[b]Hey yeah its a very good idea to give all our merits back because we want everything to be an even playing field for everyone playing the game even the ones that come in after this poll is done...
So with that I have a couple changes I'd like to see made since we are making everything fair for the new players:
1. Bodybagger's stats are far too high we can't beat him. That's not fair, reduce his stats please.
2. Everyone with $10 billion or over has more money than me. That's not fair, please reduce the amount of money that they have so it's fair for all of us.
3. We missed out on the first 5 years of this game because we didn't start the second that the game was released. I feel that this puts us at a disadvantage and is therefore not fair. Please adjust our game stats, ID #, days played, working stats and battle stats to those fitting a player that started the day TC was released, please.
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1. Train your stats. There's nothing in the game that prevents you from ever reaching BodyBagger's stats.
2. Get money. There's nothing in the game that prevents you from ever getting over $10 billion.
3. This is just plain nonsensical.
If the health is not reset then people who used the old system will have a permanent advantage. It's not merely a question of using the incremental upgrades or the hospital job. If there was a one time give away for a weapon that was untraceable and unsellable, that had 100% accuracy that always one hits and it's only given to players with the ID 1,000,000 - 1,200,000, would that not be unfair? Sure, it'd be fair if all players got it, but no, only the privileged few do because by their blind luck and timing they managed to snag one.
I know, I know. Such a weapon is a bit of an exaggeration, but really. All your points (except, again, the last which is just nonsensical) are fallacious because the goals there can be reached. Incredibly high health from the old system cannot.
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vasis
ID: 92924
Level: 50
Posts: 320
Score: 56
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 00:36:08
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By Korimito [851594]
By FSTWRX [887159]
[b]Hey yeah its a very good idea to give all our merits back because we want everything to be an even playing field for everyone playing the game even the ones that come in after this poll is done...
So with that I have a couple changes I'd like to see made since we are making everything fair for the new players:
1. Bodybagger's stats are far too high we can't beat him. That's not fair, reduce his stats please.
2. Everyone with $10 billion or over has more money than me. That's not fair, please reduce the amount of money that they have so it's fair for all of us.
3. We missed out on the first 5 years of this game because we didn't start the second that the game was released. I feel that this puts us at a disadvantage and is therefore not fair. Please adjust our game stats, ID #, days played, working stats and battle stats to those fitting a player that started the day TC was released, please.
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1. Train your stats. There's nothing in the game that prevents you from ever reaching BodyBagger's stats.
2. Get money. There's nothing in the game that prevents you from ever getting over $10 billion.
3. This is just plain nonsensical.
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Congratz, you are the smart guy here. Didn't you really get the irony?
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Korimito
ID: 851594
Level: 46
Posts: 224
Score: 15
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 00:52:25
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By vasis [92924]
By Korimito [851594]
1. Train your stats. There's nothing in the game that prevents you from ever reaching BodyBagger's stats.
2. Get money. There's nothing in the game that prevents you from ever getting over $10 billion.
3. This is just plain nonsensical.
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Congratz, you are the smart guy here. Didn't you really get the irony? |
Sure I got it. You seem to miss, though, that only one of his three points successfully mocks the idea of giving back merits; The other two actually support it.
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Loki
ID: 642350
Level: 58
Posts: 1539
Score: -8
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 01:21:02
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By Evil_Cockney [420168]
By BrianGragg [642350]
This whole thread, from Ched's initial post, has assumed that giving back the merits would be the fair hing. I'd like to challenge that on its face. If the way combat was computed was changed to disadvantage certain players, like those with high defense, then there would be no issue. |
Buhahaha, you get my award for biggest hypocrite of the thread.
No no, don't touch my life because it's unfair, just go and cripple a load of players stats instead.
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Let me explain the distinction. Nobody with high defense had defense points taken from them. The way defense was valued in the game changed. People were effected, but the raw stats were not touched.
This happens in the real world with money all the time. Governments choose to make their currency more/less valuable versus other currencies. That does not entail reaching into your bank account and changing the nominal amount of money you have.
One is called inflation, the other would be called confiscation. Different things.
Thanks for the award, but it is undeserved in this case.
Last Edited: Wed May 12, 2010 01:33:04
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TheGodfather
ID: 585818
Level: 52
Posts: 179
Score: 118
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 01:21:08
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By Shaolin [2764]
I am almost inclined to say do a complete refund of merits. Since there is a COMPLETE overhaul I wouldn't mind seeing all merits being returned.
Either way I am happy with either situation... |
Im fully for this.... all merits should be given back, along with all bonuses took back... maybe other than items or stats gained while using merits, as it might be too hard to figure out who used whatever amount of merits on any stats and at what lvl they used them at...
but if all merits are given back and all bonuses took from players, then really no one could complain as everyone would be kinda starting again when it comes to merits.
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Mafia™ ~ Looking for Strong, Active daily members that Love to chain!!!
Send me a mail if interested in joining, or just apply with stats & NB.
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Evil_Cockney
ID: 420168
Level: 82
Posts: 4207
Score: 921
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 01:49:58
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By BrianGragg [642350]
By Evil_Cockney [420168]
By BrianGragg [642350]
This whole thread, from Ched's initial post, has assumed that giving back the merits would be the fair hing. I'd like to challenge that on its face. If the way combat was computed was changed to disadvantage certain players, like those with high defense, then there would be no issue. |
Buhahaha, you get my award for biggest hypocrite of the thread.
No no, don't touch my life because it's unfair, just go and cripple a load of players stats instead.
|
Let me explain the distinction. Nobody with high defense had defense points taken from them. The way defense was valued in the game changed. People were effected, but the raw stats were not touched.
This happens in the real world with money all the time. Governments choose to make their currency more/less valuable versus other currencies. That does not entail reaching into your bank account and changing the nominal amount of money you have.
One is called inflation, the other would be called confiscation. Different things.
Thanks for the award, but it is undeserved in this case. |
Sent from BrianGragg I responded to your forum post about me
I won't bore you with the details, as you can read about them there, but I think I won the exchange.
Please feel free to respond. |
You're priceless.
Doesn't matter if you remove 50% of someones stat or tweak the battle engine to reduce it's effectiveness by 50%, the outcome is the same.
You clearly have no understanding of just how bad def actually is with this battle system, or how much it has already been crippled in the past. Let me guess though, you hardly have any def either.
You are the epitome of someone who's happy for the game to be unfair, as long as it's being unfair to someone else.
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Sirius_Joe
ID: 1209927
Level: 24
Posts: 18
Score: 4
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 01:52:37
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I'd like a complete return seeing as putting up nerve bar by 1 was a WASTE OF MERIT. But yea, it would be fair, and people would be grateful for the "second chance" merit use.
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HeroponRiki
ID: 298931
Level: 61
Posts: 147
Score: 16
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 02:23:56
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uh guys, chances are past the 2nd or third page, no one's really reading this
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Loki
ID: 642350
Level: 58
Posts: 1539
Score: -8
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 03:15:50
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Evil Cockney,
Who took defense points from you Evil_Cockney? How much were your defense points lowered?
I don't have a say in how my life points are valued, but I sure earned them. Each and every one. How these points work in the game is not my concern; I don't care.
I do understand your anger. Something you put valuable hours of your life into making... only to be taken. I get that.
My challenge to staff is to make these sorts of changes transparent to users. Don't take points, just change the effect of those points in the game engine.
The distinction in approaches is not beyond a reasonable person. Are you a reasonable person Evil_Cockney?
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Ditaz
ID: 293121
Level: 46
Posts: 168
Score: 79
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 03:39:04
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dont give it back.
think about people who spent the merit for life?
now,we can only upgrade life by merits, but 10 times only.
think about people who already upgrade more than 10 merits to life points which is gain their life almost more than 50k.
it is worthless.
dont give it back. keep the merits!
btw,
every time we want use our merit,
they will ask us, THINK CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU UPGRADE.
NOW,YOU ALL WANT IT BACK? AFTER U USE IT?
WHATS IN YOUR MIND? YOU DIDNT THINK BEFORE CLICK IT?
and if the admin really want took back the merit,let the HP bonuses!
we have spent our time for this game.
and we deserve it!
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Foss
ID: 115302
Level: 59
Posts: 37
Score: 6
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 03:54:33
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Jesus wept! Those who have high stats have worked hard for them and played the game for a long time. Is it fair that in the past, someone middling (like myself) got things that were deserved at that time according to the rules at that time, and now some poor people want to strip us of all this achievement cos we've been playing the game for longer than they have - BOLLOX is it.
I've worked damn hard to get to where I have, and alienated many people in RL by saying to them that I need to go and do something to make sure that I achieved some things. Why should I be penalised cos I found this game before YOU did?? Do I complain about those who found it before me - NO, I don't, and I also don't complain about the fact that most of my first year of life here was spent dreaming about being a big guy, but doing nothing about it.
I do see and understand that starting out in this game isn't as easy as it first was, but is that MY fault?? I'm certain that there are many games out there that if I started them now I'd have a massive disadvantage - do they all want to change their rules so I can join them and waste my time playing them too?? Don't be stupid, of course they don't!!
I have no argument with what Ched is saying and have chosen "I don't mind" as my selection even though a lot of my life points have come from upgrades, which is one of the reasons I didn't push onto a much higher level than I have. I chose to play the game that way, which now looks like it has been a bad choice, but so be it. But to then further punish me by letting people who have only recently joined have a crack at me just cos they are crying "Unfair, he's been here longer than me so has a better character" - well, if you want to punish me for that, then I will very, very quickly be leaving this game cos that would show the staff and owner here to bend too far under pressure and just to want to earn more money by encouraging more and more new players. We could then rename the game "Torn - the game for newbies, cos no matter how long you play, you'll never be better than the newbies!!"
Yeah, remove my life - semi-OK. But make newbies level with me after all my years of playing - a big emphatic NO!!
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FuQian
ID: 1064432
Level: 32
Posts: 34
Score: 6
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 04:17:46
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i for one like the new system, it seems promising and interesting.
if the old system is brought back, we should at least keep the new options in.
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299282
ID: 299282
Level: 72
Posts: 7583
Score: 2499
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 04:55:33
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By Chedburn [1]
We're considering giving all merits back to users who spent them on non-incremental upgrades before the update. This will result in users losing their bonuses gained from previous updates such as life, crime experience e.t.c.
This is the only way we can maintain long-term fairness for all players.
There are some drawbacks - users who spent their merits on items will receive those merits back, and get to keep the items and we may not be able to deduct stats from users who spent merits on upgrading them.
Considering that these upgrades probably only gave a small bonus for a small amount of time, the effects and money gained from these upgrades in particular should have long-since worn off.
What does everyone think, should we return the merits, and deduct 'most' of the bonuses? |
Looks like its 4 to 1 in favor, Get er done!!
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| Sometimes its just easier to mute them then own up to your own mistakes!! |
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Two
ID: 1290648
Level: 71
Posts: 11419
Score: 5328
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 05:42:23
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By Ditaz [293121]
dont give it back.
think about people who spent the merit for life?
now,we can only upgrade life by merits, but 10 times only.
think about people who already upgrade more than 10 merits to life points which is gain their life almost more than 50k. |
NO... You think about the people that DID not get the chance to spend merits on life earlier (before change).
it is worthless.
dont give it back. keep the merits!
btw,
every time we want use our merit,
they will ask us, THINK CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU UPGRADE. |
Thats the point we didn't get to use it on the old system as we were bloody thinking about it
NOW,YOU ALL WANT IT BACK? AFTER U USE IT?
WHATS IN YOUR MIND? YOU DIDNT THINK BEFORE CLICK IT? |
No DAMMIT we want a fair level, were everybody gets the same stunted life. We didn't get to use the merits on HP you DID you're at an advantage we are at a disadvantage whats there not to get
and if the admin really want took back the merit,let the HP bonuses!
we have spent our time for this game.
and we deserve it! |
No you don't deserve it, you've already benefited from the merits while we were waiting for the perfect time to use them!.
I really don't get whats all the fuss about.
Either you you want to keep your HP because you want others to be at a disadvantage and that's not fair.
Or you try and mention that the current life system is perfectly fine which I reply back that you really wouldn't be affected if that's the case you you'll get your merits back and be able to use them on the life system.
Eitherway both issues can be solved to reach a more fair result.
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Check out my latest sig auction!
http://www.torn.com/forums.php?forumID=23&ID=14977867 |
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DoctorAkula
ID: 293107
Level: 36
Posts: 60
Score: 32
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 06:21:48
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i found this to be deeply unfair.
those ones that spent the merits in question already got advantages from that action.
giving back to them those merits will be like granting them other merits just like that.
voted no
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Kaisu
ID: 569419
Level: 60
Posts: 1827
Score: 537
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 06:30:21
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voted yes:)
im looking forward of spending those merits right this time:)
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Johnny_Alpha
ID: 372369
Level: 67
Posts: 876
Score: 97
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 06:38:28
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so, does this mean that everytime there's an update in the future or more new players join, we get our merits back ?
As said before, alot of these high lvl players have devoted alot of time and energy to getting to where they are now, yes the game was different back then, but they were playing back then....... when many of us weren't. There is never going to be a fair system where we are all equal, some people are going to get ahead naturally, some will make better choices than others, some are just gonna moan and groan about how everyone else has better things than them.....
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_Kiwi_
ID: 463689
Level: 30
Posts: 23
Score: 0
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 06:45:14
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yes
give them back
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RFNB
ID: 593093
Level: 63
Posts: 300
Score: 106
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 06:47:02
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Why not just add a respec system that costs money. Then money can be removed from the economy and people can actually alter their builds accordingly.
It's worked pretty well for MMO games like EQ, WoW, etc
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Trollop
ID: 422101
Level: 57
Posts: 1651
Score: 356
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 06:52:59
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I keep seeing statements to the effect of "it was dumb luck you happened to use your merits on life."
No, it wasn't. For anyone that is even remotely active in this game crimes is not a major source of money... you have two choices with your nerve bar, earn merits or drop it for dex. I chose to keep my nerve bar and go for life. It wasn't dumb luck (if it was I would have hit upgrade ages ago and spent the rest of them) it was a strategic and thought out move in the betterment of my character.
So for those of you that are arguing about "fairness" I say this: If the life option had not been available I would have dropped my nerve bar two years ago so I could gain from self-busting. Since everything in this game must be fair if you take away my life I'd like to have that dex please.
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Zaoshi
ID: 61399
Level: 60
Posts: 238
Score: 25
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 07:00:19
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I'd say it's better to have ALL merits refunded. Some passive effects changed, incremental were appearing and disappearing, making it unfair based on when you spent merits. Full refund sounds better to me
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Gzzz
ID: 473551
Level: 69
Posts: 1950
Score: 542
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 07:21:25
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By Trollop [422101]
I keep seeing statements to the effect of "it was dumb luck you happened to use your merits on life."
No, it wasn't. For anyone that is even remotely active in this game crimes is not a major source of money... you have two choices with your nerve bar, earn merits or drop it for dex. I chose to keep my nerve bar and go for life. It wasn't dumb luck (if it was I would have hit upgrade ages ago and spent the rest of them) it was a strategic and thought out move in the betterment of my character.
So for those of you that are arguing about "fairness" I say this: If the life option had not been available I would have dropped my nerve bar two years ago so I could gain from self-busting. Since everything in this game must be fair if you take away my life I'd like to have that dex please. |
You've missed the point.
Many were saving strategically to use merits when they were higher level to get the most benefit. What was dumb luck was the fact that you happened to use them earlier.
I've been saving merits for ages to use on life when I hit somewhere between level 50 and 60. Suddenly my ability to use the merits in this way has been removed.
On top of this, in the new system, for every bit you upgraded in the old system, the multiplier from the new system gets applied, furthering the gap.
The gap between players who were lucky and chose to use merits early (and thus got a lot of benefit out of them) and those who waited to use them for maximum effect (and got no benefit out of them) is huge - my hp will suck forever.
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Horanos
ID: 168480
Level: 68
Posts: 615
Score: 295
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Posted on Wed May 12, 2010 07:34:55
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Whoa, what the... No, adding +1 nerve per increment was not a waste. It never was. It was more useful for the less "power-player"-styled members of Torn City, like me. I work for a living, and I have to sleep. Occasionally I may not even get the chance to log on for a day or so when I have to go out of town. That nerve merit helps me out quite a lot over the long-term.
You have your style of playing. We have ours. Please don't say that merit was a waste.
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